Jeanne opens up about the sexual abuse she survived as a child. She speaks with Dr. Dana Anderson, a forensic psychologist, to better understand why children are such easy targets. They also explore how to prevent this from happening to your children.
Dr, Dana Anderson joins Jeanne on the podcast today. For the first time, Jeanne shares some of the childhood sexual abuse history and how this has affected her life. and her parenting style.
They discuss the reasons why children are so vulnerable to this type of abuse and Dr. Anderson educates us on the warning signs we can look out for. Importantly, Dr. Anderson shares that we need to change our mindset about who the perpetrators of these crimes are, since it is most often trusted relatives, or loved ones.
Dr. Anderson shares support and parenting tips to helps victims, survivors, and parents.
EPISODE LINKS:
Dr. Dana Anderson: Website | Instagram | TikTok
My FIGGI Life Episode Referrals: What Is Panic Disorder? How To Support A Loved One With Panic Disorder.
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[00:00:01.450] - Intro
Welcome, Goddess, to your sacred space. This is the My FIGGI Life podcast, where we openly discuss life's wins and losses on our journeys to self-discovery. This is your best life. This is your FIGGI life. And now here is your host, Jeanne.
[00:00:22.130] - Jeanne
Good morning, FIGGI Goddess. Welcome to 2023 and the My FIGGI Life podcast. We are so happy to welcome you back. And we have a really special guest today, Dr. Dana Anderson. She is a court appointed forensic psychologist for the California Superior Court Criminal Division, who provides psychological evaluations to defendants at various stages of the criminal justice process. As a criminal evaluator, she assesses and diagnoses inmates detained in correctional and psychiatric facilities and state hospitals to determine competency to stand trial and is retained by the Public Defender's Office to evaluate mental health diversion cases in civil litigation and family law. Dr. Anderson is retained by the plaintiff and defendants counsel to provide psychological evaluations to assist the court in legal decisions. She is joining us today to talk about sexual abuse in children. And I am so happy that our paths have crossed and that you are able to join us today. Welcome.
[00:01:27.870] - Dr. Anderson
Thank you so much for having me. This is such an important topic and I think that it happens far more often than we know because it's not reported.
[00:01:39.940] - Jeanne
Yeah, for sure. And just on that note, FIGGI listener, let me just warn you, we are going to be talking about some sensitive subject matter today. So if you feel you may be upset by this or traumatized by this, or you have some wounds that are healing, just be aware of that. And at the end of the episode, we will also ask Dr. Anderson to give us some clues as to where you can go for help and what you can do also if you have a loved one in this situation. So, with that being said, let's start the episode. And this is the first time on the FIGGI podcast that I am speaking about this. But the reason why I asked Dr. Anderson to join us is really because I also have a history of childhood sexual abuse. I was sexually abused by my grandfather who was living on our property from the age of nine till about twelve. And it's really a big part of my narrative that I've carried with me. And I have many recurring things that stem from that, like my panic disorder, which I talk about a lot on Myfiggilife.com. And I really thought that this would be such a great conversation to have.
[00:02:49.560] - Jeanne
So, let's go into childhood sexual abuse. Let's focus on that. Dr. Anderson, can you maybe tell us why does this happen to children so often? Because I think it happens, like you said, a lot more than we think it does. Why are they such, if you can say that way, such good targets, such easy targets.
[00:03:10.730] - Dr. Anderson
Yeah, children are vulnerable not just because of their age. But this is something they don't know anything about. If no one's ever talked to them about this, they don't have any understanding of what it means. So they don't know whether it's good or bad or what it means. They don't understand the concept of sex, especially that really young age. They're expecting to tell them what's appropriate or not. Somebody that's grooming a child and they're slowly building a relationship with them. That's supposed to be where they're trying to gain the child's trust. But it's really manipulation so they can get with them in an intimate way or touch them inappropriate boundaries. They're expecting that that person that's an adult is they're trusting them. Children, they don't understand what's happening. And sometimes they don't actually understand, until they become an adult the severity of what happened. Like that they were manipulated and then they become really upset that someone violated them. But at the time, a lot of kids can say, well, I was enjoying the attention, or the one on one treatment.
[00:04:21.670] - Jeanne
Yeah, that's very, very important what you're saying, because that was for sure my experience as well. You don't understand the gravity of what is happening to you. And it's interesting that you spoke about the grooming because my grandfather was a really amazing grandpa. Like everything you would read about in the books, giving you candy, sticking up for you when you're in trouble with mom and dad, taking you to ballet classes. So you really do look up to this person and you do have a trust relationship with them. So when something like this happens, it's really difficult to kind of understand the gravity of the situation.
[00:04:57.790] - Dr. Anderson
Yeah, and a lot of people don't understand that. The reality is most, let's just say men or even women who sexually abuse a child. That doesn't mean they're paedophile. It doesn't mean they're only attracted to children. In fact, they may be married or in a relationship, as it may typically be. So, we have to change the way we think about how it happens. It's not this ominous paedophile figure. It's usually someone that you know and trust. And it can be difficult for someone, the family around them to think that that person would do this. The person can also be a really nice or good person. No one's 100% bad or 100% good. They can have other character traits, which makes it hard for the person that's being abused to say no or stop it. Because there's also maybe things that the child may be benefiting from, like the time spent or this relationship they're developing. Even though it's toxic grooming. It's just so insidious. And so, it's very difficult to understand what's happening because typically that person is spending a lot of time with the child and developing a relationship with them in a lot of other ways.
[00:06:21.070] - Dr. Anderson
So, the child is looking to them to protect them and looking up to them, maybe even idolizing them and they're really trusting them. And that's what can be so toxic when they eventually introduce touch or inappropriate touch that it's all been so subtle that they don't even know that it's wrong when it first happens and they may not notice that it's wrong for a little while.
[00:06:47.540] - Jeanne
Yeah. And I think what also comes with that definitely happened in my case, which the word and the definition and what that involves, I obviously only learned much later in life. But it's the gas lighting that comes with it. When you start to realize something may be wrong and this may not be what all grandpa's do. For example, in my case, that kind of conversation, that instant conversation they have with you, like, no, that's not what happened. Or no, you must be imagining that it was all that and you start to doubt yourself. And now you're a child, he's the grown up, you're in a trust relationship with it. So obviously you just assume, yes, it was my mistake. I did misunderstand the situation.
[00:07:33.780] - Dr. Anderson
Yeah. Gas lighting is psychological abuse. I think it came from that movie Gas Lit in the 50s where they are burning an oil lamp and the addict and the wife looks up and sees it burning and the husband's telling her, no, you didn't see that. That didn't happen, even though it did. And so in that example, he's trying to tell her that she's going crazy and the things that she's saying she's seeing or experience didn't happen, aren't happening. And so it makes you actually question that you could be wrong or your memory is off or perhaps you are wrong about the way you perceived it. And it can be to a child. They don't have the same skill set that an adult has. They're so vulnerable and they're so much easier to manipulate and tell them that. And especially if the person's also maybe introducing things to the child to lure them in, like gifts or favours, favour, clothes, shopping, ice cream experiences. So, there's something good, they're offering something in exchange. So it's highly manipulating and it can be very difficult, especially at the things that are being given to them they're not going to get from anywhere else.
[00:08:55.370] - Dr. Anderson
Perpetrators will seek out kids who they see, what they're not getting or what they're missing. And usually, it's kids that are more vulnerable. There's either an absent parent or maybe both parents are too busy or disconnected and they're not giving their child enough attention and so it kind of just goes unnoticed.
[00:09:17.260] - Jeanne
Yeah. And I think this also kind of leads to a really interesting conversation we had where you were telling me about this latest research that you've been doing. I think you said you interviewed 30 or 32 male victims that were part of the Scouts, if I have it correctly. And you were able to assess and learn more about why this happens, but also about why they don't tell can you tell us also a little bit more about that and your findings? Because I think that really ties me into what we are discussing right now.
[00:09:54.290] - Dr. Anderson
Yeah. So I took a civil case which was involved hundreds of victims that were part of different after school programs, YMCA Scouts, other things. And they all were boys at the time when they were molested and now are grown men. So, a lot of the men that I interviewed and it was under 40 men that I talked to, so they told me about their experience, how it happened, when it happened, who perpetrated the abuse. And so I heard a lot of different experiences, and not one was like the other, but there was a common theme, and it was an interesting experience for me because most of my career I've talked to women who've been molested or raped and that I have experience with. And so I've always been under the impression that it happens more with women. And of course, that's what statistics tell us. But as I met with men, one of the things that was alarming is that most of the time, they never told anyone. And not just never telling anyone, even to date, they still weren't telling their wife or their partner or their family, and most of them never intended to.
[00:11:17.900] - Dr. Anderson
And I asked questions to help me better understand why they didn't tell. And then as a child right. And one of the things was that they felt they had no person to go to. In almost all the homes, there was one absent parent, okay. The parent divorces. One parent was in prison. You're just living with mom, so you.
[00:11:42.770] - Jeanne
Didn’t have a really secure environment and family structure.
[00:11:48.470] - Dr. Anderson
Yes, so they didn't they felt like maybe the one parent was so busy or preoccupied, they didn't want to tell them. And a lot of these cases were children. Some were immigrants, some the family is very poor or they're on welfare. And some of the perpetrators that were having access to these young boys were helping the family with something like, I'm picking your kid up and I'm taking him to school, giving him a ride, taking him for ice cream. I've taken him to church. I'm taking him here, taking him for clothes. And so, the family or the child needed something, and the parents were approving it. One of the things is that most of these males were heterosexual. They were married. So it wasn't your typical paedophile.
[00:12:44.720] - Jeanne
Okay, that's important to say because I think, like you said in the beginning, we have this idea of what a paedophile is and looks like and sounds like.
[00:12:55.320] - Dr. Anderson
Yeah. So a lot of them were married. And even some one case, the woman also was involved with the husband abusing the child. Back in those days, what these men told me is you just didn't talk about it if it happened. Even the kids that told a cousin or a family member. They were like, yeah, don't talk about it. There was a lot of shame and.
[00:13:21.350] - Jeanne
Embarrassment I understand that.
[00:13:22.920] - Dr. Anderson
And emasculating them. Most of the men told me that it really affected them psychologically. They didn't know how to make sense of it, but that shame and the guilt and the confusion. As the years unfolded, they realized more about how they were manipulated, and they became angrier about it later when they were older or teenager, to maybe understand more about how they were victimized. And so most men acted out violently, getting in trouble, getting on drugs. Some of them would, in a way, to prove their manhood. They would go through a lot of relationships with women, sort of rationalize that or felt really conflicted about their sexuality because a man touched them. And they also felt they had a physiological response or even experienced pleasure, but it was also wrong. So it became a very sex became a problem in relationships, made them hard to talk about their experience or how they were feeling if they've never told their partner, their girlfriend, their wives. Some of them went through a lot of different relationships, but never it just really affected how they viewed relationships as.
[00:14:48.670] - Jeanne
You just said, it really affected them psychologically. And later in life, you become more angry and aware of what has happened in the manipulation. But we also grow in our own lives. You enter into relationships, you get married, you have kids, and you still kind of take this with you. Can you explain to us maybe a little bit of your experience with this part of it? When these victims that were sexually abused, molested or raped when they were children, they now grow up and they have their own kids. Kind of the fears that come with that and how that translates to you being a parent. Because I know, for example, for me, as all the FIGGI listeners know, I have panic disorder, and I had many relapses when I was pregnant because I just had this extreme anxiety that the same thing would happen to my little girl. And I didn't want her to be babysat by anybody. I didn't want her to go and visit anybody if there was a male that was going to be in the house. And I know now that many of those things may be seen to be irrational or unreasonable, but in my mind, I have to be super overprotective and super helicopter parent, which you can't be.
[00:16:03.460] - Dr. Anderson
You said helicopter parent, which is sort of like the parent zooming in to assess the clearing the path so that child doesn't have to experience that. So we all want to protect our children. The best thing you can teach your kids is to have an open communication with your child and let them come to you and talk to you. If anything that they feel uncomfortable about, they can come talk to you about so start practicing that conversation early on. So if a child says, I went to the neighbours and I didn't like what happened, or just made me feel awkward, or they just felt uncomfortable being there, whatever the situation is that you talk about and ask why, ask more questions about that. So you're also asking questions to help you assess how your child sees things, problems and how they might problem solve. Do you want to teach them skills to be assertive and say something? Something doesn't seem right. So before something happens, there's usually some indicator that there's something off with somebody that's trying to violate your boundaries and groom you. They're overly friendly. There's certain things you now probably see as an adult.
[00:17:19.060] - Dr. Anderson
Teach your child to communicate, just really having open communication. And so, they feel comfortable talking to you about these things. And you want to teach them skills about how they may respond and solve a problem. What might you say if someone just even tried to hug you or put your hand on your shoulder and I'm just not comfortable with that. You teach that conversation, you practice and role play it with your child. And so, they get confidence saying no. They build confidence with their boundaries. A perpetrator isn't going to choose this child if they know that child's going to talk or is going to communicate or they're going to get caught, they're an opportunist. They're going to look for the child who's least likely to tell. They're counting on you not to tell. Most people don't tell, we'd be embarrassed. We don't want to tell. They're counting on that. But you have child with a really strong sense of self, who's confident, who's really connected to their parents. They have open communication and there would be a consequence. So that perpetrator is not going to mess with that child or that family.
[00:18:30.600] - Jeanne
I know, for example, the reason I didn't tell for so long is I was afraid I was going to get in trouble. I was afraid I was wrong, and I was going to be in trouble. And I think when you do this and you have these conversations with your child and you prepare them and you do the role playing, you're also correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're also instilling that confidence in your child that they can trust you and they can tell you these things and they're not going to be in trouble. And it's not something that they're doing wrong and that they have that open line of communication.
[00:19:00.390] - Dr. Anderson
I have a son, he's 13, and I role play with him. I used to role play at the Psych hospital for patients that can't say a note of meth or have difficulty getting in these bad situations. You role play because so you're practicing how you would handle a situation you can role play. You should do this in all things, but with teaching your kids to say no, to drugs or things that come up at school. You want to know how they might handle these situations you don't know. And then practice with them. So, some kid asks you at school to do this, or it's inappropriate, it's a violation of rules. These are things you want to understand how your child sees it and how they might react, what they might do, what they would most likely do in a situation. And you want to help them learn to say no to things that are bad. And if someone is asking you to do something and you're not comfortable with, then these are really important conversations to have early on, especially because kids learn from other kids at school about drugs and sex.
[00:20:06.050] - Jeanne
And early on, I think, is the big thing, because I think a lot of parents don't have these conversations with their kids early on because they think they're protecting them and they're keeping them safe from the world for just another while. And I don't know if that's always the best approach, because it's like you say, they do learn these things at school, and the world has changed. Kids, younger and younger are being confronted with these really adult themes. Maybe it just doesn't make sense to keep them away from it.
[00:20:35.420] - Dr. Anderson
I have talked to my sons a lot about drug use and behaviours. I've worked in jails and psychiatric hospitals, so I have a lot of stories, or I see a lot of things, so I want to prevent them from getting in these situations. Teaching your kids to be confident is so important to have a strong sense of self-worth, not manipulated by someone else. Going to do this because someone asks you, you can say, but why?
[00:21:06.730] - Jeanne
I think you know your children. You have a feeling for when your kid is ready and not ready to have a certain conversation. For instance, my little girl is five years old, and I've had a lot of oh, gosh, criticism about this, but I've been talking openly with her about her body, and she has been asking questions about that. And I just didn't see the point in saying things like, oh, these are your private parts, or having these kind of hidden conversations with her when she's openly asking me, what is this? What is that? Are boys different from girls? Why are they different from girls? So, I found some really nice toddler books on just introducing the concepts of self in your body and what are the different parts. Do you agree with that?
[00:21:54.620] - Dr. Anderson
Yeah, I think it's normal. They're innocent, and you're demonstrating appropriate behaviours. So, if you're bathing your child, you have a toddler in the bath. Just like, we don't just let anyone see us under us, or these are pride crimes, or like, we cover ourselves with a towel. As your child grows up, you show them what's appropriate and what's not. You set those boundaries early on. Over time, you want to build up confidence in your child so that if there is anything that's insidious or happening with another person that is maybe talking to them about something or trying to groom them, they're more likely going to talk to you about it and ask you about it. They're going to ask your opinion. They're going to want your feedback of, is this right or wrong? And you want it to happen early on before something happens. Now, my son was about five. He used to go to the neighbours right next door, and the neighbour would babysit him while I was studying. I mean, I could look right out the window and see him if I wanted to. And this played. I would ask him, how was your time over there?
[00:23:04.810] - Dr. Anderson
Or what did you do? Or this and that. And he said he didn't like the guy. The husband, when he came home, he said, I don't like him. And I thought that was a very bold statement because he's really quite young, and I thought that was very opinionated. The husband was this deacon at a church. There were upstanding family in the community. There wasn't anything that stood out to me about that. But I said why? We want to know more about why, because the why is important. I really had to pull it out of him because I was like, Why? Because I want it. He said he didn't like the way he treated his wife, which I go, okay. I said yeah, okay. I said, well, what would you have me do? What outcome do you want? Because I wanted to hear how he thought about it. And he said, I don't want to go over there again. I mean, that was a pretty drastic outcome. Never go over there again. So, I said, okay. He'd never said that about anyone before. But we do talk about people. If they make you uncomfortable, then that's something.
[00:24:14.850] - Jeanne
Again, you know, your children, or we hope we do, but still, there are very subtle signs sometimes. How do we as parents go about looking out for these signs and maybe picking up that something may not be right, or something has changed? Like, how do we turn that radar on? And what are the kind of danger points that we look for inquire more.
[00:24:37.530] - Dr. Anderson
About any interaction so that you understand how your child perceives things. You're assessing boundaries too. So even if someone you know, the types of adults don't have good boundaries. That's a red flag. Any type of boundary violations, like just inappropriate language, inappropriate statements, or just trying to get you to do something that you're not comfortable doing. Those are things you want to teach them, confidence and all types of things, like how to say no and how do you handle situation? If somebody pushes you on the playground, they want to bully you, what do you do? So I've spent a lot of time with my boys talking about things happening on the playground. They're just conversations. They're bullying, they're waiting in line. There are different situations and how they assess it. And then I am wanting to help teach them problem solving skills because that's when children really start to learn so much about relationships. So going back to my son that told me he didn't want to go back to the neighbour’s house, I think it was probably ten years later, the wife filed for divorce. And I talked to her and she had found out he was medicating her, drugging her, and like, raping her.
[00:26:01.350] - Jeanne
Oh, no.
[00:26:02.320] - Dr. Anderson
And she didn't know she put it together.
[00:26:06.230] - Jeanne
Oh, gosh, he picked up on that for sure. He picked up. Something was wrong, something about him that.
[00:26:14.170] - Dr. Anderson
There was just so subtle, like, too overly nice, too handsome, like trying to be too perfect. But there's something too controlling. There's something there. So, your kids are perceptive and listen to them and notice if there's some adult paying too much attention to a child. For what reason? That what is your relationship? What did you guys talk about? Just have a really open dialogue with your kids and understand more about how they see things and how they solve problems.
[00:26:51.330] - Jeanne
Yeah. It's so important to know that we have to have the conversation. We have to have it for our listeners today. As we said in the beginning, if they're experiencing or going through a really tough time because they're maybe dealing with something from the past or they may have just found out that heaven forbid, something was happening to their children, where can they go? What can they do? What kind of help do they need to look for? Can you give us some direction on that?
[00:27:20.670] - Dr. Anderson
Would this be services for adults or children?
[00:27:24.700] - Jeanne
Well, let's say for adults that are experiencing any type of issues from past trauma. And then I will ask you again about children as well.
[00:27:34.470] - Dr. Anderson
So as an adult, if you're dealing with memories of the past and it doesn't always have to be post-traumatic stress, being a victim of childhood sexual abuse can affect someone in a lot of different ways, and it's different for everyone. One of the best things that I've seen to help people is talking about it with someone and trying to make sense of how it's affected your life. So you can eventually not have so much trauma or anxiety or understand how it's manifested in your life or how it's contributing to depression or your panic attacks or relationships kind of work through it. So talking with a therapist, and if you go to seek out a therapist, you might have a preference, like, hey, I want a female therapist because it was a man that abused me, and I want someone that deals with trauma or someone that's really an expert in this topic that can help me.
[00:28:31.890] - Jeanne
How would they find an individual like that? Do they reach out to the local medical community and ask for a referral? Or is there a commonplace where they can go and find an expert that can assist them?
[00:28:44.410] - Dr. Anderson
If someone is low income and they're on medical, the medical office can give them a list of therapists that are contracted with medical. They have insurance. They can get a list from, say, Blue Shield, Blue Cross, or if you are just your cash pay and you want it, to Google Psychology Today and just shop for a therapist and then see who has openings. Sometimes people reach out to me looking for a specific therapist, and I'll post it on a therapy network site that says, who has openings for Wednesday night at five? And they take Aetna insurance and helping this male overcome trauma or this and that. And so trying to help people get connected to the right therapist and to therapists that has current openings.
[00:29:36.730] - Jeanne
If we take the situation where you may have realized something has been happening to your child except for your legal recourses, what can you do? Where should you go? Do you take your child to a child therapist? What are the steps that you should ideally be taking?
[00:29:52.340] - Dr. Anderson
So, if your child reports to you that somebody has touched them inappropriately, so you always can call CPS and say, this is what is being reported. This adult still has access to children, or I'm filing this report, and then CPS, they can also file that with law enforcement. If you came to me and I'm the therapist, I'm a mandated reporter, and I would have to report it, and I would send a copy to law enforcement too, because it's a criminal offense. Depending on where you live, there's different resources. Family Justice Centres are now international, and you could probably find one closest to you. Essentially what it is collocated services for any victim of not just childhood abuse, but elder abuse, family violence, domestic violence. So they have a lot of different resources in there that can help the entire family. A lot of the justice centres will also have a special interview room with a two-sided interview room, so they'll have the law enforcement come in and record or watch the interview with the child so the child doesn't have to do it again. The Family Justice Centre, sometimes they're called a little bit different names in different communities.
[00:31:17.550] - Dr. Anderson
But if you find that that hub is Collocated Services. So, if you took your child in and you reported something yeah, so Crime Victim Assistance. If you've been a victim of any type of crime, the District Attorney's office has CVAC crime Victim Assistance, where you can get free counselling. And so that's helpful, especially if someone doesn't have insurance, they don't have the resources to get therapy. Even in domestic violence, the whole family can get those services. Kind of like having insurance, you get a card and a number, and you can get connected to a therapist that. Takes crime victim assistance.
[00:32:06.130] - Jeanne
And for our listeners today, I'm so, so happy you came onto the podcast and that you spoke to us today. And I really believe that we all meet people in our lives for a reason. And I'm so happy I made you and I'm so happy that you were on my Figure Life, where can our listeners read more about you?
[00:32:27.170] - Dr. Anderson
Yeah, thank you for having me. I really want to provide helpful information to people with the goal of hopefully preventing some of these things from happening. And I'm on social media. My website is psychologydoctor.com, and I'm going to post more free content and just videos on these type of topics from day to day that can be helpful. And mental health is so important. And childhood sexual abuse, it's so insidious and so traumatic. It really has a huge mental health impact, and it has happened to so many people. It is an epidemic. And we really have to talk about this normalize talking about it, because the more we don't report it, we don't talk about it, it just keeps happening. And the men who are sexually abused and women too, but a lot of times they'll end up also being perpetrators, so we have to make sure they get help too, so we stop that generational violence. And both of my grandparents were sexual offenders, and I never met one, but I heard of all the crimes he committed throughout his lifetime and he ended up shooting himself in the head. And I found out later my grandpa, my other grandpa was like a pimp and he had lots of different women who worked for him.
[00:34:04.500] - Dr. Anderson
These things I didn't know, I didn't find that out till after he died, but sort of changes this within my own family and oh, wow. Of how prevalent it is, or you don't even know, your whole family knew, or no one told you, or people want to maintain the facade and they don't want to talk about it, but that actually doesn't help.
[00:34:26.620] - Jeanne
Thank you so much for your time today. I'm so grateful. And we look forward to following you on social media, seeing all of your updates. Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
[00:34:36.770] - Dr. Anderson
Oh, you're so sweet. Thank you so much for having this conversation.
[00:34:41.450] - Jeanne
Thank you. Okay, so thank you so much for listening. FIGGI Goddess. And remember, everyone deserves to celebrate the goddess within. So, I will see you next time on another episode of my FIGGI Life.
[00:34:55.450] - Intro
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