Dr. Robert Baric, practitioner of over 30 years and advocate for treating the root of the problems rather than masking the symptoms, introduced decades-old Neurofeedback Therapy to Drs. Kelley and Jeanne. This is an episode not to be missed! Listen for the Astronaut History lesson!
Dr. Robert Baric shares his journey into neurofeedback and the impact it can have on various conditions. Neurofeedback can be a complementary treatment to talk therapy and other interventions.
Key Takeaways:
Links to Dr. Robert Baric:
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Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:58.039)
Ahem.
Okay. All right. Well, Dr. Baric, it's nice to meet you in person, you know, face to face. We've gotten to talk before, so I'm really excited to unpack this episode with you personally. You know, I have some experience and I'll definitely have some questions based on that, but also you've helped so many of my clients. So I can't wait to ask you a little bit more about all of this.
For people who don't know, can you maybe start with a little bit about what got you into doing neurofeedback and what exactly it is so that folks can know what we're talking about today?
Dr. Robert Baric (01:39.832)
So there were two reasons that really moved me into neurofeedback. First was a dear family friend whose son was on antidepressant medications early in life. And he was hearing voices. And the standard approach was talk therapy was helpful, but medication, medication, medication. And he took his life. And of course, we know that's one of the side effects of.
the antidepressant medications, it's suicide and you're thinking crap. And I put like that little bookmark in my head. And then it's been probably now nine, 10 years where my mother had a stroke.
Dr. Jeanne (02:06.674)
Yes.
Dr. Robert Baric (02:18.048)
She was in her eighties. She had year post stroke, had all kinds still of limitations. And I reached out to the smartest people I know in stroke rehab and they says, you need to do neurofeedback with her. So I took a eighties year old woman, one year post stroke who couldn't really care for herself walk without a walker feed dress, all that. And I brought neurofeedback in with her, my first guinea pig patient. And I restored much of that.
So it was just a, it was a while. It was a while. Who are you? You can have a conversation. You can dress yourself, feed yourself, care for yourself, walk without a walker. it's like, holy heck in a year after the stroke, as we all know, there's that six week window post stroke. That's your honeymoon. If you get it, you get it. If you don't, well, you probably have to live with it. But neurofeedback gave me the ability to, and with those two things and kind of that initial friend's son, said, Hey, I need to jump into
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:51.096)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (02:55.272)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:57.452)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (03:15.596)
for speed.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:17.019)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (03:17.15)
Wow.
Dr. Robert Baric (03:18.007)
Amelia, asked a great question, doc. 1965, little bit of history, 1965 NASA Gemini program, the astronauts were having seizures around the rocket fuel. So they brought in a guy, Dr. Barry Sternman from UCLA School of Medicine. He conditioned their brains, the astronauts brains to not have seizures. So everything's based on data. Every astronaut since 1965 gets neurofeedback. I tell people I'm the mechanic of your
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:38.796)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:45.923)
Mm
Dr. Robert Baric (03:48.664)
So, and the joy is, is not only do you have symptom,
Dr. Jeanne (03:49.148)
Wow.
Dr. Robert Baric (03:53.538)
potential help with, but also it's for peak performance. It's for physician burnout. It's for, so, you the brain's kind of one of those important things and it's that mama scenario. If your brain ain't happy, ain't nobody happy. And it's a tool. tell people it's a tool. It's not the be all end all, heck no. It is a tool when used appropriately. Amazing. But there's other conditions that it's very inefficient for. So like tinnitus.
Dr. Jeanne (04:06.141)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:06.156)
Mm -hmm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:18.889)
Mm, okay.
Dr. Robert Baric (04:19.062)
Right? Very inefficient for that. So what's the basis? Operate conditioning, behaviorism, real world. tell people I'm a squirrel trainer. So I'm you. I'm training the squirrels in their head, especially, you know, children, et cetera, that when you're outside playing in the yard, let the squirrels run all over. But when you're in class, when you're in homework, okay, squirrels, you need to sit in the back of the room. I need to get my homework done. I need to stay on task. So I joke with people on the squirrel trainer.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:41.282)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (04:47.486)
So all based on data. And that is why, you know, there can be really consistent results with some groups of people. And, you know, that's so that's that's the overview.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:00.084)
Mm -hmm and for someone who doesn't get a scope of it, I know you're not gonna break down the full science of it But what could they expect when they go into their first session?
Dr. Robert Baric (05:11.928)
Okay, so there is a thing called a quick EEG or a QEEG. We put a cap on their head, goop in their hair, and I gather 10 ,000 data point size closed, 10 ,000 data point size open.
After that, we send that data up to a normative database. So all this data gathering, data cleaning report takes about 30 minutes. The joy of it is it's non -invasive. So I'm not injecting them. We're not doing a CAT scan. We're not doing a SPECT scan. We're basically putting a cap on their head. I have no idea what they're thinking. I'm just seeing how the brain is running.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:45.506)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (05:46.584)
I tell people, think of your car, you get a check engine light. Well, I'm putting the computer on the car and it's saying, oh, here's your air codes. And then now I use my clinical hat to say, is this something that we can help you with? Why is it critical? You have four brains in your body. You have a right brain, a left brain, a thyroid brain, and a gut brain. And why do I tell you thyroid brain? Well, your brain weighs 1 % of your body, but consumes 25 % of your
Dr. Jeanne (05:53.85)
Mm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:58.593)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (06:17.218)
So it eats all the time and if you're not getting enough energy to it, that is huge. And that is why neurofeedback can fail because this brain and the gut brain...
Dr. Jeanne (06:17.767)
Wow.
Dr. Robert Baric (06:31.178)
aren't addressed. And if you don't address them, again, I'm an analogy person. It's like pushing a car with the brake on. ain't going to get anywhere. So so critical to, the initial scan doesn't tell me what's broken. just tells me we need to look somewhere. So then I put my clinician head on and say, you have up, up. We need to do more blood work for thyroid. We need to do more blood work for potential food intolerances. So we need to often tell them, as I tell people, we have, you have a
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:37.494)
Hmm. Yeah, that makes sense.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:55.149)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (07:01.114)
issue plural. You either have this one and this one and this one or any combination. So again, the brain controls everything. Okay, so does that kind of answer your question?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:03.576)
Gotcha.
Dr. Jeanne (07:07.976)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:13.462)
It does. And it's interesting. It makes me think of something just personal and random. I had had the joy of meeting, I guess, I call her my niece, but she's really my second cousin a couple of weeks ago. She's so sweet and a little fussy. And the new parents could not understand why she was hungry quicker than normal. And I was trying to explain to them, said, I'm pretty sure you take a baby who's three months old, who's used to being in this very
controlled environment and put them into this huge social setting with all these people and new things to process. And it's all of this happening. Their brain is using all that milk up and they're going to need some more food. said, I think she's fussy because she's hungry because she's thinking a lot. And what you just said confirmed that. I can, I sense that even just personally, know, days I'm working or days I'm using my brain more.
needing more nutrition. So I love that you mentioned that because it's, it's, I sometimes say it's kind of like driving the, a car cross country with dirty oil. Like you can't expect the car to work effectively. You can't expect it to get all the way there. So, so as far as other things that you would target with, neurofeedback, there were three categories
Dr. Jean and I were really interested in. And I think one of them, obviously personally I'm interested in because my own husband had a traumatic brain injury from a car accident. you, Dr. Barrack, dare I say, we're like a couple's counselor for us because it made a huge impact on our marriage, him going and doing neurofeedback in a positive way. And I've seen some of my most stuck clients from trauma.
also have huge changes from neurofeedback. And then the third category of ADHD, which I know that TBI can aggravate ADHD. So there's this trifecta that we're super interested in. And I don't know how you can unpack all of it, but traumatic brain injury, ADHD, trauma, neurofeedback, go. Good luck. Yeah.
Dr. Robert Baric (09:30.584)
Okay, so we're gonna jump to neurofeedback. Folks, neurofeedback is a tool.
Dr. Jeanne (09:30.684)
Hahaha!
Dr. Robert Baric (09:38.312)
And when you use the appropriate, it's amazing, but it's not right for everything. So, so people get fixated on something. I can fix my stuck gutters with neurofeedback. No, you can't. I can't fix tinnitus with neurofeedback. Success is super duper low. But it's a, it's, it's, I always look at it as this is a tool for you to use in your toolbox. These are for, for, for people that are, that are having, that are not, that are hitting a wall where they're either A,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:42.445)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:42.984)
Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:49.016)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:49.298)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:00.652)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (10:07.828)
hit a wall or be meds that they're on potentially or they don't want to be on meds are not giving them positive, they're having secondary side effects that are undesirable. So the big three that we see by far are ADD, ADHD, anxiety, depression, TBI, insomnia.
Basically again, everything is based on data. the individual goes to their feedback provider, they do a QEEG. And from that, it's think of it as just you want to drive somewhere an hour away where you bring up Google Ways and it's going to tell you don't go this way, go that way. That's the most efficient way.
So each condition is a little different. Well, it's a very different area of the brain. So this is, we're working on the area that's not optimized. How do we optimize that area? So like all three of those conditions are amazing, the synergy between, know, talk therapy and neurofeedback because they're so complimentary.
They're complementary procedures. And that's where, going back to, always like to have in your case, the more tools I can give you in your toolbox, now you're saying, hey, I can handle this. I need to co -treat this. I need to refer that. So I always take the approach of the more tools I can have in my toolbox, the more tools we can provide you, the better results you get, the more efficient, the more cost effective, the more long -lasting.
Like for instance, one condition is called sepant, chemo induced peripheral neuropathy. So somebody has breast cancer or some type of cancer, they get chemo, hey, they live, but now they have this peripheral neuropathy. Neurofeedback's phenomenal for that.
Dr. Jeanne (11:58.75)
Well.
Dr. Robert Baric (11:59.71)
So these are some of the best MD Anderson in Houston, huge research on. That's going to be neurofeedback, right? That's what that responds well to. Yes.
Dr. Jeanne (12:13.064)
So let me just clarify from my side as I've, this is like the first time I'm hearing about neurofeedback. I really don't know anything about it. If I'm understanding you correctly, you diagnose and treat or just diagnose. Say for example, I have an anxiety disorder. I come to you, you do the brain, the cap thing that you put, yeah, the jelly cap.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:34.006)
Jelly cap.
Dr. Robert Baric (12:35.063)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (12:37.02)
And then you get data back and it tells you there's not just a problem here, there's also a problem in the gut or a problem in the thyroid. You tell me what tests to do. I bring those results back to you and then you give me some kind of action plan for how we manage these.
Dr. Robert Baric (12:54.328)
Okay, great, great question. So let's get in there and clarify. So the initial scan is gonna tell me, do I need to look outside of the brain? And that's gonna be blood work. So that will be blood work thyroid. And I hear all the time where people say, well, I had my thyroid and it's fine. And very simply ladies, they don't do the right thyroid work.
Dr. Jeanne (13:15.997)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:16.11)
agreed.
Dr. Robert Baric (13:16.12)
They do agree. So my thyroid panel was over 13 indicators just for thyroid that I check, not TSH and free T4, which tells me nothing. So there is a diagnostic portion. Now let's get into a treating portion. A treating portion, again, operant conditioning behavior is in puppy training. Dr. Jean, you come in. We now say that there is attention issues. Well.
good old Broadmans areas 400 years ago we studied. The brain is kind of like a car hood. lift that hood up and we see here's the brake, here's the master cylinder, here's the radiator, here's the engine, and here's the windshield wiper fluid. There's all the different areas in the brain. And with good certainty, we can say, hey, this area in the occipital lobe, if the alpha and beta waves are not in the right spot, we need to help them be optimized. We need the alpha waves to be higher in the right side and the beta waves to be higher
the left. So that's all gathering. Now this is a session. You're sitting down at a TV. You're nice and comfortable. You're watching something on Netflix connected to my computer. This is listening. And this is, I tell people, I'm your biggest cheerleader. When your brain's doing what we want, I give you a perfect 4K picture. When your brain is not doing what we want, I take the picture away.
So the picture is going to fade in and out. Basically, I'm giving you rewards for good behavior and I'm, I'm ignoring you. I'm taking the reward away. Not shocking you, but I'm, taking the reward away when you're not getting, when your brain's not doing what we Sessions normally are about 30, 35 minutes long. You start seeing a difference at about session 10 to 15.
The people around you start seeing a difference at about session five to 10. I call it the question. And what's the question is, is what are you doing? Why? Oh, you're different. And then, and then we get to 20 and we stop and we re -scan. And I tell people three things need to occur. You need to give me a thumbs up. The people around you need to say, Oh yeah, you need to keep, keep going. And then I'm able to compare data round one to data round two. And I want a 20 % or greater improvement.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:16.242)
Hehehehehe
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:21.88)
Amen.
Dr. Robert Baric (15:35.928)
that point in time, I tell most people need 40 sessions. It's kind of like the good old broken arm six weeks in a cast. With neuroplasticity, you have that. Your brain now knows how to ride the bike. Your brain now knows how to do that with two exceptions. Number one, a concussion. And number two, when a young lady starts her menses.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:45.865)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:54.178)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:58.14)
Mmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (15:58.168)
So we have seen backsliding on both of those, not to zero, but definitely it could be 20 to 40 % back depending on. And that's just, you Hey, the brain and we can chat about TBI in a bit if you so choose, but.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:01.581)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:12.394)
I do, yeah, I would like to ask about that.
Dr. Jeanne (16:12.794)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (16:15.48)
So again, it's all based on puppy training. I'm rewarding good behavior. I'm ignoring bad behavior. The brain says, hey, I like this. It becomes your new normal. The Max Planck Institute in Germany says after one session, they can see new neuro fibers growing from neurofeedback. It's different, my
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:33.848)
That's so cool. You know, a way that I sometimes explain it to my clients, and I don't know if you like this analogy, and I'd be very curious. Anytime we want to make change in life, we need feedback. We need to know that something's working or not. So I sometimes talk about if you're at the fair and you're playing one of those games that are totally rigged and we barely ever win. So if you throw the ball at the milk jug and it goes all the way to the right, you go, I should.
correct and go to the left. So then you throw it again and it goes all the way to the left. I should correct it. And you go again and you, nail it. It's a lot easier to do that with our physical body because we can see, we can feel, we get to observe the reaction or the outcome. But with the brain, it's often much more difficult to be able to tell whether or not I'm focusing correctly. Am I using the part of my brain that's going to help me feel calm?
Am I using the part of the brain that will help me remember these things or attend or attune? And so that's what I thought was a beautiful part of neurofeedback is as you said, you have someone watching as you're relaxing. I know my husband watched the entire discography of the office when he did his. But you you have someone doing that for you, have someone showing you in real time, but you're just relaxing.
Dr. Jeanne (17:49.881)
Hahaha.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:59.276)
and they're doing this really amazing feedback for you so your brain can respond. Is that a good way of explaining that?
Dr. Jeanne (18:06.163)
Wow.
Dr. Robert Baric (18:07.828)
It is. It is. and I'm a little bit, I tell people I'm playing checkers with your subconscious brain, right? You're just chilling out. You're on the roller coaster. You're chilling out. Enjoy the office. When your brain does what we want, I give her your award. When your brain doesn't, I take it away. and you're, you're the cool part about it is, is it's very reproducible. So, so, but it's very reproducible. but no, it's correct. We're, we're playing in the subconscious brain.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:14.566)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (18:15.23)
Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:23.085)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (18:36.568)
I mean, if you look at all three of us, Hey, we all know how to ride a bike, but we might not ride a bike for 10 years. And when we get back on that bike, we don't go to training wheels. Right. We might be wiggly for 10 feet, but you got it. You're not going back to we were still younger, younger.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:36.696)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:43.138)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:46.766)
show.
Dr. Jeanne (18:56.19)
So that do
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:56.194)
And by reproducible, do you mean that if you're, sorry, go for it.
Dr. Jeanne (18:59.742)
Yeah, it's okay. I think we were going to ask the same question. Like, so is there a maintenance phase that you need to go? I think you said you need about 40 missions. So after, do you have to come back like every three months or every six months or you're
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:06.528)
hehe
Dr. Robert Baric (19:17.016)
You're set. You're set. again, and that's the longitudinal portion. They have studies 20 to 30 years post longitudinal that you still have it.
And except for those two exceptions, those two exceptions are, if somebody has a concussion, which we can jump to at some point in time, I have, we're really rolling out a super duper cool thing. I think it's going to be world changing. And then also if a young lady starts her period, there's definitely a lot of hormonal changes going on through the body. I call it the spicy years.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:50.166)
Mm -hmm. You mean the spicy life because of you have you have menopause you have para menopause. Yeah, all the fun You know, I one thing I pregnancy one thing I do encourage my clients to do though post treatment is to take at least some of the time that they dedicated to going to these sessions and Starting a meditation practice Because neuroplasticity doesn't just stop
Dr. Jeanne (19:50.462)
Pregnancy.
Dr. Robert Baric (20:15.894)
Absolutely.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:19.31)
you can still teach yourself bad habits. so giving yourself the time to, not that you have to pick up a bike every time to remember how to ride it, but like you said, it'll be easier and you'll be less shaky if it hasn't been 10 years.
Dr. Jeanne (20:35.976)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (20:36.714)
Agree. So you have the condition list and that's the big three, attention, anxiety, depression, insomnia. But you'll have others where we'll have, mean, tinnitus, my success is single digits. Somebody comes in and tinnitus, but if somebody comes in with tinnitus, we've gotten so much better results with dietary changes, pulling oxalates out of the
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:44.876)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (20:59.192)
It's crazy as that is. Oxalates. Oxalates are healthy foods, but they cause the ears to... So that's just a condition that doesn't respond as well to neurofeedback. There is a second class. Yes.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:59.341)
Mmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (21:10.686)
So, sorry, can I just ask you, would that thing be the same? Because tinnitus, it's to do with the ears, right? The ears and the teeth, is that correct? Because my dad was just, yeah, my dad was just diagnosed with, we believe, we think it's a type of motor neuron disease. It's very, very rare. It's Charcot -Marie -Tooth disease, CMT. And he has stage two. And he
Dr. Robert Baric (21:20.716)
ringing in the ears.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:35.97)
Wow, never heard of that.
Dr. Jeanne (21:39.632)
He is struggling, like his entire body goes into spasms and literally only his eyes move. And I mean, he was diagnosed like three months ago and he's already like struggling to walk. So those would be some of the conditions that will not be great success rate for
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:45.951)
That's scary.
Dr. Robert Baric (22:01.96)
Okay, so are you gonna reverse it? No. there, but oftentimes in those conditions, there's some underlying metabolic problem. So, so think of this as inflammation equals Satan. You've got to figure out where your inflammation is coming from. And is it foods? Is it environment? Is it something? But it...
Dr. Jeanne (22:16.328)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (22:23.288)
Are you gonna make it go away like a splinter you pulled out, doesn't hurt anymore, no. But in cases that are very similar, very difficult, you gotta get to the underlying causes of inflammation. I would address that. And there are some really smart people that we can chat about offline that I can connect you with that are gonna look from a tangential perspective.
I mean, we have some people that came in in wheelchairs and walkers and aren't wheelchairs and walkers anymore. And everybody said they got to stay there the rest of their life. The brain just, I mean, the brain proves you wrong.
Dr. Jeanne (22:56.253)
Wow.
Dr. Robert Baric (23:02.36)
If you, if you put a limitation on the brain, the brain just laughs at you. And there is a great study I just pulled out from Lancet where there was a Frenchman and in our brain, you know, we all took neuroanatomy a hundred years ago. There's these little lakes called ventricles that create the cerebral spinal fluid. And this gentleman coincidentally goes into the doctor for a headaches and his, his lake, which should be about the size of my fingernail is his 90 % of his head.
Dr. Jeanne (23:02.877)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (23:30.296)
And he's functioning normally. No, his, his, his ventricle is 90 % of his head is filled with fluid and he's functioning and driving and coach. And you just look and say, how's that work smarty pants. So, so like in your dad's case, if there's a rotten spot in my mother's case, there was a rotten spot. You just route around it. Now it's not always easy, but it was possible.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:30.668)
His leg.
Dr. Jeanne (23:32.646)
Wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:34.591)
Dr. Jeanne (23:38.312)
Holy moly. Wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:39.692)
Yikes.
Dr. Jeanne (23:43.9)
Wow.
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:46.882)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (23:53.16)
Mm. Mm. Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:56.374)
Okay, so I feel like that would tie us nicely into TBI because with traumatic brain injuries, sometimes there's going to be an area of the brain impacted. So I have a question and then, you know, maybe we could follow it up with what you're doing with TBI. With TBI, is the neurofeedback repairing the injury and the bruising and the malfunction, or is it, as you were saying,
bypassing where the injury is and just strengthening other areas to compensate for what the injured part can no longer do.
Dr. Robert Baric (24:32.344)
Okay. So TBI could be a huge talk in itself. So I'll be super duper quick. Um, basically your brain, as I talked about, consumes 25 % of your calories. That whole, and we live, we live 99 % of the time on glucose. That whole glucose system fails. So, so what do you have a TBI? So, and now the brain has a backup energy system called ketones.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:36.642)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:44.011)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:45.64)
That is crazy.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:47.295)
Hehehehe
Mm -hmm.
When you have a TBI? Okay.
Dr. Robert Baric (25:02.486)
So it can run on key temps just fine. Think of it as that your generator outside. do. Power goes out, boom, generator kicks in, you're fine. You can't run forever, but sure as heck you can run for a long time. So what happens, Dr. Amelia, is the energy, all the pumps in our brain.
fail and then the glymphatics back up. So it's, it's rarely one area. When I twist an ankle, I twist an ankle, my right ankle sore, my left shoulder is not. When I get a TPI, I can get systemic failures. can get sexual function failures. can get emotional.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:31.355)
Mm Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:39.424)
Aggression. Well, and you've probably seen there's been new studies out confirming the increase in suicidal ideation and there's even even they're making connections between the suicide rates in the military and those who were part of the project where they put all of these soldiers on the ground to do high artillery missions to save lives. They're sending less people.
Dr. Robert Baric (25:48.438)
See
Dr. Robert Baric (26:02.167)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:07.042)
but they're getting more impact and over time these TBIs are then leading to huge spikes in suicide for the veterans when they're returning
Dr. Robert Baric (26:16.856)
So there's, a TBI is not one area. It can have global effects in the brain and therefore peripheral failures. I just released a white paper last week on this exact topic. And the reason why is, I've worked with a team to create an acute concussion first aid kit.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:23.171)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:27.617)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:31.032)
Mmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (26:44.984)
So basically somebody gets a TBI, they, they, it's a powder. They consume it for seven to 10 days. And it basically says, Hey, you don't have that generator. We're going to give you orally that generator. We're going to give you exogenous ketones that immediately kick your brain into ketosis. They're going to keep the glufatics working anti -inflammatory, get through the blood brain barrier. Because again, it's a fire. I tell people it's a fire extinguisher for the brain. You don't want to ever use it, but if
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:45.302)
okay.
Dr. Robert Baric (27:14.94)
need it, I can't call Amazon and get it three days later. it, well, that fire extinguisher, can't, you can't, so say for instance, somebody has a hot fire, they have a little fire in their kitchen. Well, if they can't put it out, it just keeps growing and growing and growing and growing. That's the same as the TBI. And that's where we're rolling out in September.
Dr. Jeanne (27:17.756)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:18.624)
Get what exactly?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:29.954)
Right. Mmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (27:36.637)
a product where people can actually consume acute TBI with the goal of reducing all those long -term peripheral residuals of sexual dysfunction, anger, suicide, because we kept the pumps working.
We temporarily kept the pumps working. temporarily kept the glymphatic straining. We kept the astrocytes still working and inter communicating between all the poles, between all the different regions. We kept the default network working in the brain just for this brief period until the brain seven to 10 days later says, Hey, okay. I'm ready to come back and turn on again. The normal glucose system. So yeah, it's, it's, um,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:53.203)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:16.258)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (28:16.796)
Mm. Mm.
Dr. Robert Baric (28:22.55)
why I'm a problem person, but you've had anxiety. How long have you had anxiety? And then my next question is, it's been two years. Tell me about your auto accident or your injury five years prior. I didn't have one. yeah, I did. Like, So it doesn't cause everything, but it really can be far reaching negative benefits that you don't connect back to.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:25.026)
Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:36.972)
Hehehehe. Hehehehe.
Dr. Jeanne (28:37.754)
Hahaha!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:43.478)
Yeah. You bring up a good point about timeline though. So is there timeline limitations on when these like first aid kits or neurofeedback can be helpful for TBI and what is there like a golden time and what happens if you've passed it? Because for instance, those soldiers I was mentioning, many of them didn't even realize that they were suffering TBI because at this point there wasn't proper
testing implemented, but there's actually a bill being passed through Congress right now to completely change all of that, which is super exciting. But what are the timelines as far as actually helping with a traumatic brain injury?
Dr. Robert Baric (29:28.788)
Okay. So there's, there's, there's in the world, this is not a United States problem. This is not a Portugal problem. This is not a South Africa. This is a world problem. So every two, three years they bring the world together and there's, there's the burden working papers, the Amsterdam working papers and
TBI is multifactorial. Is it head? Is it eyes? Is it cervical spine? Is it all of the above? answer is yes. The quicker any time you can treat something, the less residuals. Does neurofeedback work five years after a TBI? Yes. It just takes longer. I don't want to do neurofeedback with an acute TBI patient. The brain cannot handle it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:01.102)
Of course.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:08.135)
Mmm, okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:15.168)
okay.
Dr. Jeanne (30:15.614)
Mmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (30:16.264)
So the brain, I want the brain to kind of take care of its all internal things. I don't want to be stimulating it over pushing, making it do extra work in that initial, you know, period. that's why we're, you know, put this together, this formulation where if we can, if we can make the problem much smaller, it's much easier to fix. So we see.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:39.55)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, that makes sense
Dr. Jeanne (30:43.127)
So, Amelia, actually have a... Yeah, sorry. I have a question that I think will go into what Dr. Baric says. Remember our episode with David Jacks and he was talking about, I think, NET? Is that what he was talking about? Okay. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense, but is that the same? Okay. So this is completely different. Neurofeedback and NET, it's not the same thing at all. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Dr. Robert Baric (30:45.772)
Please.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:54.252)
Yes.
I'm giggling cuz I still don't fully understand the science behind it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:05.514)
Yes, they're nothing, they're nothing alike. -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yes. And I was giggling, just trying to still grasp the science of NET. so as far as what I'm hearing you say, the sooner you can get the nutritional deficiencies, the fuel needed for the brain to heal, the better. And then after a couple of months,
Dr. Robert Baric (31:32.801)
a month.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:33.646)
Okay, after a month, you can then start something like neurofeedback. I'm curious, there's these myths around concussion that I'm curious if you have a thought on regarding sleep. For sure, there's this huge like, let them sleep, don't let them sleep. What is your take? Because that's, think, a very confusing
Dr. Robert Baric (31:58.84)
Okay. So, so again, this isn't my opinion. This is, I have a clinical opinion, but there are super smart people. And I want to say, I want to say it's the Berlin. I'm blanking. Is it the Berlin or the Amsterdam? But the latest working papers are if they want to sleep, let them sleep. Don't wake them up every four hours. Sleep is their friend. Increase activity quickly, but gradually.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:08.247)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:20.514)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:25.709)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (32:26.882)
But again, you've got to have six factors. You've got to deal with the eyes. Most people's eyes get very eye tracking that when you're looking out that window called a saccade and you see, look, there's something and there's something and there's something. It's so complex. So the current working papers are you want to try to address everything as quickly as possible at the gradual rate. And please understand, it's not one concussion.
It's they had one four years ago that never healed right. So it's not like you're starting from a hundred percent every time. And, and, and that is that people can have a bit of a challenge getting that around their head is because, well, I just barely bumped my head and I can't function and I have headaches and I can't, well, it's the 14 you had before that. Correct.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:55.334)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:03.404)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (33:16.264)
Hahaha.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:16.482)
Right, even being a child, mean, gosh, yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (33:22.784)
my gosh, my daughter fell on her head so many times when she was small. I hope that's not gonna come back to haunt her.
Dr. Robert Baric (33:27.055)
It's your fault. but no 80 % of kids will fall from three feet by age one according to the CDC. It's not a child abuse. They roll, they move, they do. You qualify.
Dr. Jeanne (33:35.726)
Ugh, okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:38.302)
No, I'm literally thinking of when my daughter rolled off the bed when she was a baby. yeah, no, it's, yeah, it happens. I'm curious. There's one other area that, you know, we haven't touched on, but because we are the sensitivity doctors, you know, I'm so curious about highly sensitive people who have a more active limbic system and whether there is value.
Dr. Jeanne (33:45.225)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:07.278)
to neurofeedback for some of the, I don't wanna say struggles of being an HSP, but it can be a more challenging life at times.
Dr. Robert Baric (34:16.824)
Okay. So, so there's, there's many forms of neurofeedback, probably 80 % of neurofeedback. And this is just my number is eyes open or eyes closed. And you're, you're either, you're, you're puppy training. it television you're rewarding in and out? it sound music you're rewarding any ounce? So you're going to do audio fading or video fading. There is another portion of neurofeedback, which we do peak performance and you know, and the person who used it a hundred years ago is Thomas Edison. So when.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:30.349)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (34:46.898)
were falling asleep they go into a hypnagogic state which is Twilight and that Twilight is this right go to church boom a lecture boom so they're not asleep but they're working on it so so you put these people in this hypnagogic state the alpha waves and the theta waves invert the beta waves and high beta waves start dropping you get emotional integration
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:54.999)
Mm -hmm. -hmm. Thanksgiving.
Dr. Robert Baric (35:14.368)
and you're working with the default network. So on those individuals.
It is, it's going in with kids gloves. It's helping right, the right brain and back, their left brain to kind of just get in sync. Very, very gradual. It's trying to get them to alpha theta. do that with our peak performance people. it really helps with burnout. It helps with PTSD. We don't know what they're throwing away, but we just see that they're throwing away junk. I call it, cleaning out the emotional junk drawer, but it's taking the limbic system and saying through the default network and saying, Hey,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:34.188)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:45.44)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (35:51.909)
Wow, I'm you know, I'm not on this, this fight or flight limbic last soldier on the wall and if I fall asleep, all, everybody dies. But that's the world, that's the world we live in.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:54.989)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:04.96)
And to clarify, the default mode network for anyone who doesn't know what that is, is the areas of the brain that fire when we're not focusing, and it's kind of where we wander to. And for many people who have endured trauma, the default mode network can be a somewhat unpleasant place to live if your default mode network is a space where you're catastrophizing or worrying
I think my default mode network is a planner. Not shocking, I'm sure. And so, and it's interesting. I've, I've contemplated when my, when my schedule frees up sometime in the next 10 years of maybe coming in and trying. Cause I think I remember you've done 2020 of those initial sessions. And then usually the last 20, if someone stays for 60 is the type of sessions you're talking about, which are a little bit more of
kind of purposeful relaxation, more meditative type of sessions.
Dr. Robert Baric (37:06.488)
mean, we have people in session 300 just because their peak performance, they have their, so I tell people if we're doing alpha theta, there's four things. First of all, more responding and less reacting.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:17.334)
And can you tell folks what is alpha, theta, beta, like just really quick so that they understand what you're saying?
Dr. Robert Baric (37:23.748)
Okay, so they learned that over a hundred years ago when they're starting to listen to the brain's waves, they use the alphabet. So delta, then beta, then alpha, then beta, then high beta. So there's different, think of it like radio stations, one to four hertz, four to seven, seven to 12, 12 to 15. And we just put names on them.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:42.904)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:46.968)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (37:49.816)
So kind of to use a vernacular in the profession and really it's not us, but it's in the brain profession. They said, oh, this is four to seven Hertz. Okay. This is one to four Hertz. This is Delta and then you got Theta, Alpha, Beta. So they just put names on different frequencies. Think of it as on your radio, have a, in locally have one to 1 .5. Okay. Well that we're going to call that a frequency and then one of five, okay. That's B frequency. So they just kind of put names on them of
specific hurts that the brain produces and we know a lot of
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:23.776)
Is one more desirable than the other though? Like are we aiming for one versus the other?
Dr. Robert Baric (38:31.124)
They're all good. It's just, they're all good at the right time, but you just don't want too much of one. Right? Right. Right. Right. And I use the example of a stick shift car. Well, first gear is great, but I don't want to live in first gear. I need to get in fifth gear. Right. Right. I don't want, I don't want to be able to sleep, but when my eyes are open, I want, I want a different frequency because I'm processing. I want to be as efficient as possible. Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:35.394)
Mm -hmm. Thank you. Okay.
Dr. Jeanne (38:44.956)
Mm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:51.415)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:56.91)
So what is alpha associated with then?
Dr. Robert Baric (39:01.314)
You're gonna ask all those good questions. So you have, and I'm gonna kick that down the road because I could go back and look at up stuff because there's a lot of stuff that's come back recently, but Delta's primarily for sleep.
Dr. Jeanne (39:03.75)
Hahaha.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:12.844)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (39:16.256)
Alpha and Alpha brain, Alpha in the frontal lobe especially is a very busy brain. This is a person that's always thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:25.42)
Okay. We're gonna use that clip right there for the real on Instagram. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (39:33.192)
Hahaha.
Dr. Robert Baric (39:42.072)
Um, um, so those are the different frequencies, but in alpha theta training, we want to put them in that Twilight state. Thomas Edison. It's so it's super, it's more responding, less reacting, um, internal calmness, creativity goes up and it helps clean out the emotional junk drawer. Um, for, for instance, when I do it, my, I'm fairly good shape. My resting heart rate's about 55, 56. When I do alpha theta training, my heart rate will go into the thirties.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:59.114)
Okay, gosh, that's cool.
Dr. Jeanne (40:11.506)
Whoa.
Dr. Robert Baric (40:11.896)
Small hit 38, 39, 40, which you know is safe, is safe, but your brain, my whole nervous system goes, yeah, okay B.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:15.458)
And you're still alive.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:22.008)
my gosh, that's so interesting. Cause I think about when I like go do acupuncture, which I love, sometimes I feel like I forget to breathe. Like I feel like I'm not breathing. And I think it's cause my nervous system just gets so relaxed. Yeah. I'm like, gosh, have I breathed this minute?
Dr. Robert Baric (40:40.28)
Sure, sure.
Dr. Jeanne (40:41.567)
But also the brainwaves that you're talking about now where they're all good, but they should be in balance and they're good at different times. this also, how I understand it is for us that struggle with anxiety disorders, we tend to have beta waves that are always kind of firing at a higher level because we're always, I call it buzzing. We're always like, you know, like underneath the surface. Is that true?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:05.032)
Mm -hmm
Dr. Robert Baric (41:09.108)
Okay, so you have the delta theta alpha beta. The alpha you want to be higher in the right side of your head with your eyes. If we just look letter of the law Q -E -G, we want the alpha to be higher in the right side of your head with your eyes closed.
So that means alpha, it's da da, but it's more pronounced on my right side. The beta, we want more pronounced on the left side with the eyes closed. So if it's opposite, you'll have anxiety. So our job is to say, push it over here. Beta's not bad, it's just it gotta be in the right side. It gotta be in right side of the house, in the right side of the head.
Dr. Jeanne (41:26.872)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (41:37.778)
I don't know.
Dr. Jeanne (41:43.89)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:45.218)
That's very interesting. Okay.
Dr. Robert Baric (41:48.312)
And about, about one in 10 people come in and say, I'm not telling you anything about me. So we gather the data and I say, okay, well say, well, hey, I think, I think you could have anxiety and you can have whatever. And a few weeks ago, I had a person come in and he just said, just stop. And I was like, okay. And he says, just let me tell you, you've told me more about me and I'm a psychiatrist. So, so you can tell a lot. the joy of it is, if you get the four brains, right, this one, this one
much better.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:20.215)
That is so cool. And I'm curious, know, with all of this that you've been able to unpack today for our listeners, and I'm sure there's probably follow up questions people have because it's such a big topic. If someone maybe doesn't have the means to go get neurofeedback right now, whether it be time or finance or just access, are there any practices that you think someone could be doing to
Dr. Robert Baric (42:30.05)
Sure.
Dr. Jeanne (42:31.74)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:45.964)
gained some of those same benefits today as maybe they save up or seek to do neurofeedback in the future.
Dr. Robert Baric (42:53.176)
Sure. So there's absolutely, so I mean, and I tell people, I want you to be an SOV 10 minutes a day. And everybody knows one abbreviation of SOV, but I say, no, short of breath, right? I want you to be short of breath 10 minutes a day. Right. They're like, oh, I'm an SOV all the time. I say, know that, but I need you to do this. So short of breath, 10 minutes a day, meditation, just sit quietly, right? This thing called a phone.
Dr. Jeanne (43:02.822)
Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:04.142)
okay. Thank you. was like, I was so tempted to say the other one.
Mm -hmm
Dr. Robert Baric (43:22.168)
Put it in a different room, right? Unplug. Unplug, right? Touch earth. Get barefoot if you can.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:23.648)
my gosh, yeah. Good for you.
Dr. Jeanne (43:24.881)
I do that, yay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:31.337)
Hmm.
Dr. Robert Baric (43:33.868)
There's a, there's a great thing called heart rate variability. That's something that you mean low tack, but really effective, really, really effective. So, so again, it's, it's, what are you putting in? What are you putting in here? And how can you do things to get out of the circus of in your face, fear, fear, fear, fear, fear, because that's what sells screens, right? That's what keeps you on your book.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:53.634)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. I love that. I love that. Yeah, a dopamine break.
Dr. Jeanne (44:00.456)
Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, this is such an amazing episode, so informative.
Dr. Robert Baric (44:00.961)
Bye.
Dr. Robert Baric (44:05.324)
dopamine break.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:09.65)
I really really appreciate you taking the time to come and talk to us talk to us answer some of our questions and and Really? one of the big missions that we have with this podcast is giving people access to ideas of how to cope with life and sensitivity and Whatever the thing that may lead them into an office like yours and so if anyone is in the area and wants to find you and or out of the area and wants to learn a little bit more
your papers or some of your information and things that you can do to help others, where can they find you?
Dr. Robert Baric (44:45.376)
So you can go, website is mybraindr .com. That's my neurofeedback. And for concussion, it's myconcussiondr. Like Dr. Millie, so we do so much remote training where people will actually fly in, get their QEG, and take equipment home. Currently, we have people in Asia, Africa, Europe, South Central, South America. Don't have anybody in Antarctica right now. I don't know
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:01.013)
okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:05.93)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:14.45)
Dr. Robert Baric (45:15.608)
But they can take equipment home with them. But again, neurofeedback is there. My suggestion, if anybody's considering it wherever you live, is if they don't start things with that QEEG, I really question. Because now I'm just playing whack -a -mole.
Dr. Jeanne (45:16.178)
Wow.
Dr. Robert Baric (45:34.424)
The data gathered in 20 ,000 data points, do it right. Cause that's going to greatly increase effectiveness. And the data is just not there to say, oh, you have this therefore treat this side of the brain. Sometime it is, but not always.
Dr. Jeanne (45:34.96)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:36.546)
Good point.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:49.354)
Mm -hmm. Right. Such a good point. I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming and talking with us and all the good, excellent work you're doing to help people. And we just appreciate your time. Thank you so much.
Dr. Robert Baric (46:01.484)
Well, no, thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you for sharing the message. And thank you for all your work that you do. And I always want to try to be a tool or a resource to frontline therapists like yourself, because I mean, you're in the room. You're touching them. You're feeling them. You're hearing them. You know the story. And the more tools I can give you, know, sometimes it's appropriate. Sometimes it's not. So have a great day. And thank you, everybody, for your time.
Dr. Jeanne (46:03.24)
Thank you.