This is PART 2 of Dr Amelia Kelley's interview. She is an integrative, trauma-informed therapist who talks to Jeanne about Gaslighting recovery for women. They delve into this form of emotional abuse, using Jeanne's history as a foundation, and take the journey toward emotional healing from this trauma.
This is PART 2 of Dr Amelia Kelley's interview. She is an integrative, trauma-informed therapist who talks to Jeanne about Gaslighting recovery for women. They delve into this form of emotional abuse, using Jeanne's history as a foundation, and take the journey toward emotional healing from this trauma.
Key Moments
00:00 Introduction.
00:45 The trauma response.
09:15 Difficulties with setting boundaries.
12:58 The thriving techniques and difficulties in the journey of healing.
17:05 What Dr. Kelly recommends we do daily to stay in a good space.
18:30 Where can you find Dr. Kelly
EPISODE LINKS
Dr. Amelia Kelly: Website | Book - Gaslighting Recovery for Women | Instagram
Jeanne Retief: Shop FIGGI Beauty | Blog | Instagram
[00:00:00.480] - Jeanne
Welcome, FIGGI Goddess, to part two of the gaslighting theme we are discussing with Dr. Amelia Kelly, the author of Gaslighting Recovery for Women, the complete guide to recognizing manipulation and achieving freedom from emotional abuse. In this episode, which is part two, we are discussing and talking a lot more about the road to recovery, what that's going to look like, and how we get there. I hope you enjoy it.
[00:00:29.740] - Intro
Welcome, goddess, to your sacred space. This is the My FIGGI Life podcast, where we openly discuss life's wins and losses on our journeys to self-discovery. This is your best life. This is your FIGGI life. And now here is your host, Jeanne.
[00:00:50.480] - Jeanne
So after we understand what gaslighting is, the different types of gaslighting in the stages, you talk about the trauma response, which is, as I understand it, what happens to the person subjected to gas lighting after, I guess they've now realized, okay, this is what's happening. They've hopefully exited the relationship or worked on it, and now they're dealing with the after effects or the after shocks. I see myself in all of those responses. I've been dealing with that most of my life. The biggest one for me has been a negative self-concept. I had a very unhealthy relationship with food and with holding food from myself. I just had a really, really, really hard time with that. I still struggle with that. I also struggle with that in terms of business. I've been an entrepreneur for over a decade, and my businesses have been very successful. But I also make a lot of mistakes and take a lot of time sometimes to my detriment to make decisions because I'm always questioning myself, especially during times when you have to be stronger. You have to say no, you have to ask questions, you have to say boundaries. I will always immediately revert to this, Oh, no, but maybe he didn't mean it that way.
[00:02:05.630] - Jeanne
No, maybe I didn't send the email. Maybe I said it the wrong way. Always. I always go back to that. Can you talk a little bit about the trauma response and what that looks like for you in practice?
[00:02:21.140] - Dr. Kelly
The one that you were speaking about specifically was Fawning. Pete Walker's book, Surviving Complex PTSD, is an excellent book to learn about fight, flight, freeze, spawn. I know a lot of us have heard of fight, flight, that tendency to want to fight when we feel triggered. And that doesn't just have to be physically, but like getting aggressive or wanting to hyper-defend, the flight mode could look like you're just actually not always trying to exit the situation, but you have a hard time relaxing. You have a hard time stopping, a hard time being still. That can be the flight mode. Freeze is you've buckled, you've folded, you are either asleep 10 hours or you are frozen in time and can't speak. You lose that voice in that moment. But what you were talking about is fawning.
[00:03:14.550] - Jeanne
I've never heard of that. I have no idea what that is.
[00:03:17.260] - Dr. Kelly
Okay, so the fawn response, which I would say, in my opinion, would probably be one of the more common trauma responses that would happen as a result of gaslighting because of the nature of gaslighting. The nature of gaslighting is to take your voice and to take your individual emotional state away. Fawning is when you forego your own emotional wellness. You forego what you want and what you need because you know that there's no point in fighting. There's no point in standing up for yourself. You just become overagreeable, co-dependent, questioning whether or not you get to have your own response or reaction. I use the term emotional individuals a lot. This doesn't just have to be emotionally individuals from someone because you're in a conflict. It could be something as simple as what movie do you want to go see? What do I even want?
[00:04:15.320] - Jeanne
In college or in university, my nickname was Sorry Shot Jean, because I used to apologize for everything and I used to drive my friends crazy. And if we went out, they would go like, Every time you apologize, you're going to have to drink a shot.
[00:04:32.140] - Dr. Kelly
Well, that would make for a fun night. Maybe not for you in the morning. But actually, I'm so happy you mentioned apologizing because that's a very common example of fawning. A lot of my clients I work with, we will do a homework assignment sometimes where they have to make sure not to use I'm sorry unless they really deeply mean it.
[00:04:54.060] - Jeanne
But that's what makes it hard sometimes because I think when you're in this position, you also tend to lean towards the personality type where you are extremely self-critical.
[00:05:06.030] - Dr. Kelly
You.
[00:05:07.660] - Jeanne
Tend to take things so much more seriously than somebody else would even if it's about you. So its becomes really difficult to not mean that apology. That's almost what makes it so hard because you do mean it so deeply and you do feel so deeply. I think that's why it's so emotionally exhausting because you're constantly giving that everything of sincerity. Honestly, in some situations, it really isn't actually called for. Of course, there are times when one needs to apologize, but I mean, you don't need to apologize because you, by accident, sat down in somebody's place. You can get up and move away, small, silly things like that.
[00:05:51.730] - Dr. Kelly
But you bring up a good point about this nuance of trauma when someone doesn't necessarily only have or doesn't meet criteria for PTSD, but rather CPTSD, so complex PTSD, which is a result from prolonged, repeated interpersonal trauma. Cptsd, the two things that are very different about that is that someone with PTSD and CPTSD both can experience reexperiencing, avoidance and numbing, hyperarousal, that fight-flight response that we often think of when we think of someone with PTSD, but with someone who has complex PTSD, which I would assume you probably have based on what you've gone through and what you're explaining, those folks tend to have a little bit more difficulty with interpersonal situations, having a hard time connecting authentically or trusting intimacy, and also a very strong negative self-concept, sometimes a hard time accepting criticism or advice. Not that you're not open to it, but that you'll take it, but you also feel deeply bad about yourself.
[00:07:07.340] - Jeanne
At the same time. Yeah, you take it so seriously. This is one of the things that my husband and I have many conversations over. He can't tell me when I've done something wrong because he ends up feeling so bad for me with how unbelievably hard I take it. I will say, Yeah, but would you rather want somebody that doesn't mean it and that doesn't work on being better? But it's just so natural for me. I take it so seriously and it affects me so deeply.
[00:07:40.060] - Dr. Kelly
Yeah, I mean, it's so hard. That's getting back to what you were saying about what do you do if you really do me in the apologies all the time because of your wiring, because of your history, because of the filter of how you see the world? That's why sometimes instead of me trying to focus on completely changing someone's trauma response or beliefs, we have to start with, of course, mindfulness. You at first have to notice it. So notice, observe, almost like a radical acceptance that this is what's happening. Then the opposite action, but starting small. In the group I was talking about, that collective, when we were talking about boundaries, there's one woman in there who was struggling to set really strong boundaries with a toxic family member. We said, you know what? From now on, she's going to express her preference for the air conditioning temperature. It might sound like something so simple, but using these little tiny things, well, I say tiny, but they can have huge impact. Using the little day to day ways to emotionally individually, even disagreeing about a music preference, just any time you can disagree or speak any of your truth and you survive it and you realize you're okay, that's that slow rewiring.
[00:09:03.110] - Dr. Kelly
That's why trauma recovery is a huge journey. It's not just an overnight experience.
[00:09:13.720] - Jeanne
You take us also through things we can do to help ourselves and to heal. One of the things that you touch upon is boundary setting. Honestly, when I read the word boundary, it's almost like I immediately mentally shut down, because for me, it's difficult to talk about boundaries as a way of getting to a better place because it's so anxiety-provoking to set that boundary. It's very oftentimes met with such severe forms of emotional and verbal abuse because you're daring to set this boundary, and just because you're ready to do it doesn't mean the other person's going to accept it. Then you go through all of the guilt of breaking the relationship and all of that. How do you deal with that in terms of how difficult it is for someone in this position to even just, not just set the initial boundary. I think that's anxiety-provoking, that's difficult. But to keep it up. Because you say no once, it's bad. But you feel, Okay, okay, I've done it. You say no the second time, it's maybe better or worse. You're taking it the third time, you're like, Okay, whoa, this is way too difficult for me.
[00:10:31.030] - Jeanne
I'm just going to give up and stand down.
[00:10:34.130] - Dr. Kelly
Well, maybe part of what you're finding out when you go for the three strikes is that if that person is not willing to respect your boundary, you might have to make a tough decision about whether or not that relationship is good for you.
[00:10:48.230] - Jeanne
Agreed. I've made these difficult decisions. The problem is then afterward, that guilt. Because again, then it goes back into the cycle, right? Because you're starting to doubt yourself. You're starting to think maybe you misinterpreted it. Maybe it's something you did or you didn't do. It keeps on drawing you back into that little tumble dryer.
[00:11:09.820] - Dr. Kelly
But you just brought up something that is so crucial when overcoming gaslighting or overcoming emotional abuse, and it's finding supportive people who are in your corner, who are doing life bravely and who you can bounce the facts off of. Hey, this has been going on in this relationship. I just really would not even that you need their affirmation, but it's just like a touchstone with reality so that others can remind you, no, that was okay for you to set that boundary. And this is hard for people who can't maybe think of someone in their corner. I know that that is, unfortunately, sometimes what keeps people in their trauma bonds. But let me just affirm you do not ever have to feel guilty for a boundary. I know I can say that, and it may not land for everyone, so I'll say it again. You do not have to feel guilty for a boundary. I actually see boundaries as deeply compassionate. Because I've said this before, if I say yes, you know I mean it. If I say no, you know I mean it. So within my relationships, people don't have to guess whether I'm being authentic.
[00:12:19.930] - Dr. Kelly
You know that I really want to help you if I say yes, or you know that I really don't if I say no. And it takes a lot of practice and courage, but once you get used to surviving, not pleasing someone, you see that relationships actually improve. And then the ones that are not respectful and are not allowing you to have boundaries, you either cut off or maybe you just limit contact. Because I know that's not always easy with certain family members or maybe a coworker that you can't get rid of, things like that.
[00:12:57.680] - Jeanne
You talk also about the thriving techniques. This is one thing that my FIGGI audience will know a lot about because that's the whole concept of the FIGGI community. There are no secrets to happiness. Life always happens. It's a big part of what stalled my healing process with my panic disorder. It's this concept that I was always reading about all of these different techniques, and I would feel bad if I didn't do it the correct way, and it would ultimately end up being demotivating because I thought I was working towards being healed. Make no mistake, mindfulness, breathing, gratitude, all of those things that I think you touch upon are part of my life. I love it. It's made a huge part of my life a lot better and a difference to it. But I think the biggest difference for me has been recognizing that I can have all of these techniques in my life, but I can still relapse and I can still have triggers. When that happens, it's not the end of the world because it's okay for healing to be a journey. It's not like I do A, B, C, and D, and then I'm healed.
[00:14:06.370] - Jeanne
What is your opinion on that and the thriving techniques that you recommend?
[00:14:10.920] - Dr. Kelly
I don't actually ever see someone healed. I mean, maybe if we got a scrape on our knee or something, but healing is an action. It's an active practice, and practice is a huge part of this. The biggest difference I see between people who are thriving versus people who are struggling or just barely surviving is the willingness to come back to something without criticizing your sofa falling off of it. So knowing, okay, maybe I do better when I am meditating, and then you suddenly realize a month has gone by and you're feeling tense and you're having a hard time sleeping, and then you recognize, Oh, my gosh, I haven't been prioritizing this very helpful thing. You can either A, create a script that you're a failure and that you can't keep up with things and what's the point? It doesn't work, or you can go back at it. That is, in my opinion, the main difference, like I was saying, between being able to thrive and not.
[00:15:11.430] - Jeanne
My husband actually said something that changed a lot for me. I had had a panic attack again, and usually it's the panic hangover that really makes it difficult for me. You're dealing with a lot of feelings of guilt and, Why did this happen again? I think this comes into what you're saying now. You get back at it, is he said, Okay, listen, look, from now on going forward, we're going to see it like this. You had a bad day. When you were first diagnosed, you had 30 bad days in a row. Then you had two bad weeks. Now you have one bad day every three months. It's a bad day. Today, we write it off. Tomorrow, we start again.
[00:15:54.010] - Dr. Kelly
I love that.
[00:15:54.880] - Jeanne
It helped me so much because it helped me get unstuck from that hole that you fall into and back to what you said, Okay, go back to the mindfulness. Go back to the breathing. Don't stop doing it. Don't stop these practices. You just had a bad day. You know what?
[00:16:12.770] - Dr. Kelly
That is such a good example of self-compassion. People who practice self-compassion, it's not just being nice to yourself. It's actually allowing yourself to mess up and to see little tiny failures or things that don't go the way you want as growth and forward movement as opposed to the full story. You don't become the bad day. You are not the bad day. It was just a bad day. And so that, he is wonderful. I love the way he put that. I like him and I don't even.
[00:16:46.580] - Jeanne
Know him. He really is. He is a champion.
[00:16:48.870] - Dr. Kelly
But not only did he allow you to have more perspective, like saying you went from 30 bad days to one bad day, or however you had put it, it allows you to to not get into that critical mindset. I think you're right. Perspective plus self-compassion plus stick-to-it-iveness. Those three are the magic equation, I think.
[00:17:13.260] - Jeanne
This has been such an enlightening conversation. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. But before we let you go, we have to ask you some key things that we always ask our guests on the FIGGI podcast. We're all about doing the best we can to live our best lives. What's one thing you do on the daily to live your best life?
[00:17:32.840] - Dr. Kelly
I have to exercise. That is something if I do not move my body in some way that feels challenging and free every day, I honestly joke I'm not a good mom. I have to move my body. I will work out in hotel rooms, in my office, wherever. That's huge. And one other thing is I have to create something. Whether it be I do a little writing or I play a little piano. I have to feel like I've created something, even if it's just for 15 minutes.
[00:18:08.150] - Jeanne
That's awesome. I also love... Exercise is such a big stress relief for me, or stress release, actually, and creativity. That's just a wonderful space to be in. So tell our listeners, please, where can they find your book? Tell us the name of your book, your website, where they can find you. Give us all your information.
[00:18:29.630] - Dr. Kelly
Absolutely.
[00:18:30.130] - Jeanne
Well, you don't have to give your street address.
[00:18:32.700] - Dr. Kelly
My social security number. No, I'm just kidding. My newest book, Gaslighting Recovery for Women: The Complete Guide to recognizing manipulation and achieving freedom from emotional abuse. You can find at any major book seller, Amazon, Target, Barnes and Noble. I cannot wait next... Well, I don't know. This will be airing after, but I'm in deep anticipation of it coming out in a week. I am going to run to my local Barnes and Noble and put it in my pretty little hands. Oh, you should. I'm so excited it's going to be in the bookstore. I'm thrilled.
[00:19:08.750] - Jeanne
And Audible? Can they download it on audiobooks?
[00:19:12.120] - Dr. Kelly
So that one's not available on Audible yet, but ironically, my first one, What I Wish I Knew, my co-author, Kendylene, and I are in the finishing production stages of.
[00:19:22.560] - Jeanne
That one.
[00:19:23.440] - Dr. Kelly
Oh, awesome. Yes, we'll be coming out in November.
[00:19:26.590] - Jeanne
On Audible. I can recommend both these books, both of them. Please go and get these books.
[00:19:33.490] - Dr. Kelly
And for anyone listening, I love to stay connected to my readers, answer questions, give you just all different ideas to integrate therapy into your daily life. So I'mI'm on Instagram, just my name, @dr. Amelia Kelly, with an EY, Kelly is with an EY, or my website, Ameliakelly. Com, I like to post different meditations. You can find quizzes associated with my or PDF. I also happen to have an insight Timer channel, which I will be releasing a new self-compassion series course in about a week's time. So yeah, lots of different places to find me. I love to be connected to my readers and listeners.
[00:20:17.000] - Jeanne
If you're driving, as always, don't worry, all of these links are going to be in the episode notes for you. So just head on down, click what you're interested in, and you will be directed to Dr. Amelia Kelly. Thank you so much for being on the My FIGGI Life podcast.
[00:20:32.230] - Dr. Kelly
Thank you so much for having me. This is really fun.
[00:20:34.570] - Jeanne
Goddess, as always, remember that everybody deserves to celebrate the goddess within. Until next time, goodbye.
[00:20:44.170] - Intro
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