Drs. Amelia Kelley & Jeanne Retief welcome special guest, Judith Smith. They talk about her new book, Difficult: Mothering Challenging Adult Children through Conflict and Change.
Judith Smith, discusses her research on how older women experience mothering as they get older and the impact of their adult children's issues on them. Specifically, she focuses on serious mental illness and substance use disorder as the primary issues faced by these mothers.
Key Takeaways:
Episode Links:
Difficult: Mothering Challenging Adult Children through Conflict and Change.
Dr. Jeanne (00:00.004)
So today we are joined by Judy. I am so happy to have her here and we're gonna talk about difficult adult children and difficult mothering.
I have so much of this in my past. I've seen it in my family. I've lived through it. So I'm so interested to dive into this topic with you. But I mean, right from the start, we could say, if you think about difficult adult children, we can all kind of put a meaning to that and what we see as a difficult adult child.
So to set us up for a good foundation for this conversation, can you define to us what you mean with difficult adult children and specifically how you define that in terms of your book?
Judith Smith (01:25.78)
Well, when I started this project, I was really interested in how older women I interviewed and the people I work with are generally women who are in their sixties. Sometimes they were in their fifties, seventies, eighties. But I was interested in understanding what happens to women's experience of mothering as they get older and what issues in their adult children's lives have an impact on them. And.
change, make them feel worried, make them feel concerned, make them feel angry. So I did a qualitative research project to find out from mothers themselves what were the issues. So I actually went to senior centers in the United States and after bingo, I had a little five minutes and I said, you know, who's a parent? And everybody said, you know, they were all excited to talk with me. I said, what were the problems when your kids were three? You know, sharing, sleeping.
Dr. Jeanne (02:11.496)
I'm sorry.
Judith Smith (02:23.508)
I said, how about when they were six? Friends, 12. I said, how about 40? And then the room got quiet and somebody said, drugs, depression. I said, well, I want to talk to those of you who have a 40 year old who you're worried about. So I went into the corner, I had no idea if anybody would come and people did. And I kept doing this over and over again. And what I discovered after talking to 50 people,
Dr. Jeanne (02:30.372)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (02:35.652)
Hmm.
Judith Smith (02:53.544)
The issues for the women who came to speak with me was primarily serious mental illness and substance use disorder. And serious mental illness was adult children who had had a psychiatric hospitalization usually, who when they had a psychotic episode, experienced hallucinations, delusions, and often refused to take the medication because they thought they were not sick.
Dr. Jeanne (03:02.372)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (03:21.572)
Okay.
Judith Smith (03:22.516)
That has a name called anasognosia, which means it's actually neurological that sort of when there's certain kind of, I think we know it more when people have strokes, that you may not know that your left side is not working because of your brain. The same thing happens with anasognosia. People with serious mental illness do not know that they have mental illness. So this just feels awful to a parent when you're trying to get them.
Dr. Jeanne (03:25.444)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (03:46.98)
Mmm.
Judith Smith (03:51.636)
to take their medication, because you know they will be able to function if they take their medication, but they don't think they're sick and they don't like the side effects. So you're living with somebody whose life can go on a roller coaster, depending on what stage of the illness they're in, it's extremely disruptive, interferes with being able to work, have close relationships and have a good relationship with your own family. And substance use, go ahead.
Dr. Jeanne (04:17.444)
Yeah, so in terms of your definition of difficult adult children for your book, this would be really focusing on the substance abuse and the mental health issues that you discovered from your 50 conversations, right?
Judith Smith (04:31.636)
Yeah, and which I mean, I think the part that's significant about both of those is they interfere with the person's ability to be self -supporting. So that often they have to come home. You know, the people I talked to all had kids who did leave for initially to go to college, to work, because there's some moms when their babies are born have severe chronic illnesses and the mom knows.
Dr. Jeanne (04:39.46)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (04:59.54)
the kid will never be self -supporting and she will be a mother until she dies, an active mother. That's not who I was talking to. I was talking to moms who assumed their kids were gonna go off and have a regular life. And then something, what happens with serious mental illness and substance use disorder that's in common is that the person gets fired, they break up with their girlfriend, something happens where their life is falling apart and...
Dr. Jeanne (05:04.964)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (05:28.659)
most of them initially come home and say, you know, is there room at the end? Can I, can I.
Dr. Jeanne (05:34.144)
So I'm curious because this is something that I think I've also experienced in my own story. When you're talking about, especially perhaps also in terms of substance abuse, but especially in terms of mental illness, a lot of those examples for me were that the parent didn't necessarily know at first that there was a mental illness. So I'm curious to know in your research how
these parents went about or came to find out that there was maybe something more going on than an adult child just seemingly not being able to function in society or maybe losing jobs all the time. That journey in itself, I think, can be also quite difficult, especially if the child does not want to help in getting the treatment and understanding that diagnosis.
Judith Smith (06:32.948)
Yeah, the way I phrase it is seeing or not seeing from the mother's point of view. And I think one mom in particular sort of got me to really understand how that operated. She had a daughter who was very high functioning. She was in her 40s. Usually first episode of serious mental illness happens in 1920. But this young woman was doing well. She was married. She was an executive.
Dr. Jeanne (06:38.628)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (06:56.292)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (07:02.484)
And then she told her parents she wanted to change her name to Vishnu. And they didn't like it, but they said, okay, she's done so well. And next she said she was gonna go leave her apartment and go camping. And when she ran out of food, she would die. And then suddenly they had to quickly, and these are people who knew...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:06.745)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (07:09.508)
Okay?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:11.897)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (07:32.244)
You know, nothing about mental illness. They'd never had psychiatric problems in their family. And when she said she was going to close down the apartment and just go camping, the dad got on an airplane, flew there, discovered she had a gun. He went to the local police, had her mandated to a psychiatric hospital.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:50.745)
Hmm.
Judith Smith (07:59.092)
and they quickly had to learn everything about mental illness. They knew nothing. And initially they didn't want to tell their families. They felt so ashamed because they do nothing about mental illness. So they, but once they opened their eyes, this family was able to act. You know, the dad got in an airplane, he went there, he went to the police and she got, she happened to have very good insurance because she worked in a corporate job.
Dr. Jeanne (08:14.788)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (08:26.612)
She had one year of psychiatric hospitalization, which is completely unusual. I mean, the awful thing that I have learned is how our mental health system is failing people in the United States. Most people get hospitalized for, like one mom's daughter just was evicted from her apartment and taken to jail and sent to a hospital. And the mother's thrilled that she's in the hospital, but unfortunately it will only be...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:37.817)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (08:56.084)
at the most two weeks in some states, it can be two days. So you can let yourself know, but we don't yet have partners in our mental health system to help parents really understand mental illness. It's still a stigmatized illness. So many people are afraid of it. If your neighbor has a psychiatric breakdown, most people will not come over with a casserole, as we do.
Dr. Jeanne (08:57.956)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:59.801)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:24.324)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:24.533)
Be nice.
Judith Smith (09:25.908)
if they have canceled, they instead sort of turn the other way and don't know what to ask. And families become so isolated when they're suddenly dealing with mental illness.
Dr. Jeanne (09:34.884)
Mm.
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:41.7)
I would be interested to know when you were doing this research and when you were talking to these parents, how many of those whose children were struggling and falling into this category of difficult adults had been subjected to some kind of trauma or come from families with generational trauma?
Judith Smith (10:02.74)
Well, that's an interesting question. I think the field of elder abuse, which we'll get to more because many of these adults with serious mental illness and substance use disorder at some point lash out at their own families. And those women and men also are elder abuse victims because they're older and they're often not reporting it. But the field of elder abuse,
Dr. Jeanne (10:19.236)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:26.361)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (10:26.468)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (10:32.18)
in particular is really starting to look at early trauma among people. And I just wrote a paper on that. And I, because I didn't ask about any of those that in my interviews, but the paper I just wrote, I went back and looked at what people had told me and many people spontaneously had said,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:49.753)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (10:55.412)
I was a victim, you know, my husband beat me. My mother was abusive. My mother was a narcissist, whatever that stood for. And I think theoretically, the way I understand is if you have experienced early trauma, if you have been hurt by your own family, it's harder to stand up to the aggression when you're older, that you become more passive in the face of aggression.
Dr. Jeanne (10:58.756)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (11:20.804)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:20.921)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (11:24.404)
And it's hard to open your eyes, you know, because you're used to being discounted and you're used to people not being aggressive and you're not able to your original question to really keep your eyes open to this behavior is not okay.
Dr. Jeanne (11:40.548)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:41.241)
I was curious in the work that I've done. I've worked at a methadone clinic for a period of years and now in my private practice, I encounter quite a few adults who have children who are difficult. I'm understanding now after reading your book that I have here and is fabulous. And I'm excited to share it with my clients.
What I encounter often is this intersection of helping the adults, the adult parents understand that it's okay to make decisions despite the guilt that they experience of not being able to fix or help or correct what's happening for their adult difficult child. I encountered that a lot at the methadone clinic.
Dr. Jeanne (12:26.372)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:36.217)
especially sometimes I would be the counselor to the adult difficult child, we would bring the parent in and we would have to have sessions around it's okay that your mother is not supporting you right now. It's okay that your mother is choosing to set a boundary with you. What did you find in your work and what are your opinions around working through that guilt?
Dr. Jeanne (12:53.092)
Mm.
Judith Smith (13:01.204)
I think it's extremely hard. I now run support groups for moms who have difficult adult kids. And I think this is the lifelong struggle, you know, in terms of how do I begin to protect myself more? The women that I work with are not going to walk away. I mean, there's some people who do, but there are many people in my groups have their kids can no longer come into the house. They live separately.
Dr. Jeanne (13:15.876)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:29.017)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (13:30.84)
You know, moms, just a couple of moms have used the same image that their children can't share a wall with anybody. You know, they're so destructive. They can't be in the same house, certainly with their own parents. But to get to the place where you really say you can't be here takes enormous strength. And I work a lot on helping people with what, with guilt, with shame, and also mother blame.
Dr. Jeanne (13:39.748)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:39.865)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:47.417)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (14:00.436)
You know, everybody, our society assumes, let's say if you're working with, that the parents of your adult kids in the methadone clinic may have had a substance use themselves. Is that true?
Dr. Jeanne (14:00.868)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:01.017)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:12.985)
Absolutely, and or there was, as Jean was alluding to, perpetual trauma within the family structure.
Dr. Jeanne (14:20.74)
Mm. Mm.
Judith Smith (14:22.132)
Yeah. So that's very hard to not blame yourself, you know, the assumption I was a bad mother. And the question then becomes, how long do you pay that price? You know, what is the sentence for having had a substance use problem yourself when you were younger? I mean, one social worker described some really wonderful work she did with a mom whose adult child was really a child. We're talking about a 42 year old woman.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:26.809)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (14:32.388)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:32.953)
Yes.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:41.689)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:51.513)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (14:51.604)
was living with her mom and very, very abusive, hitting her, biting her, throwing things at her. It took like two years of engagement with the social worker before she finally evicted her, called the police. But two hours later, the girl got on the phone and say, what kind of mother evicts her child? So the mom brings her back. But then she continued to work with the social worker and she got...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:55.001)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (14:56.068)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:12.505)
Hmm.
Judith Smith (15:20.373)
an order of protection, not exclusion, but an order of protection within the house. It's a piece of paper that says, if you hit me again, I will throw, you know, I can have you arrested. Within the house, there's an order of protection within the house. So it feels you're not completely throwing them into homelessness. And for this mother, she felt terribly guilty because in fact, when her daughter was,
Dr. Jeanne (15:26.308)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:27.065)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:33.881)
wow, within the house.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:43.257)
Right.
Judith Smith (15:48.5)
In 2014, she reported to her mom that she was being abused by a family member, sexually abused. The mom turned a deaf ear to it and she felt terribly guilty and assumed that this is why the daughter was so disturbed. And so she couldn't set any limits, but somehow after, and it took a long time, having this order, the stay away order within her home, when her daughter would start being aggressive, she held up the piece of paper.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:52.921)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:58.745)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:04.537)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (16:04.676)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:18.841)
Wow.
Dr. Jeanne (16:19.236)
Hmm.
Judith Smith (16:20.084)
And that began to give her a sense of power. I mean, she was not ready to have her child be homeless, but she started to really set limits and a sense that she could be effective. So I think as clinicians, it's finding a way to let the parents know they have a right to have a voice, they have a right to have boundaries. But I think when the alternatives are homelessness or your house, it's a very hard decision to make.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:26.713)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (16:26.82)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:47.353)
Right, absolutely.
Dr. Jeanne (16:48.248)
And also just going back on what you were saying about the blame and the guilt. I suppose it also becomes a really difficult and vicious circle when there is more than one child involved, because something that I saw a lot in my experience is there was always one of the children that kind of became responsible for protecting the parent.
and sorting out these difficulties that would occur. So for a lack of being able to describe it better, but the functioning adult between the two kids would become the one that is almost taking on the responsibility for the bad behavior of the other child and trying to shield the parent and kind of stepping into that almost parent role on behalf of the parent, which then I think creates that whole role of
Judith Smith (17:23.156)
I think that's it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:39.481)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (17:45.604)
blame on the part of the mother and having to deal with the fact that it's difficult to mother the child that is posing so many problems for the family. And on top of that, having to deal with this blame and guilt you feel towards the child that is taking on this role that should have been yours. I must just imagine that makes it even worse.
Judith Smith (18:10.9)
Right. And all the data where they've done time diaries within families of which kids get the most attention, the kids who get the most attention and the most financial resources as they get older are the ones who have the most problems. So the healthier kids are right to me. It's not fair. It's not fair. But when you have somebody who's screaming and somebody who's sitting there smiling, you know,
Dr. Jeanne (18:25.284)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:26.969)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (18:27.716)
wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:30.265)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (18:30.468)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:39.577)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (18:40.372)
it's very hard to be equitable and you just want to put out the fire. And also if you're talking about somebody who's not functioning, the more healthy sibling worries, what happens when my parents are gone?
Dr. Jeanne (18:56.228)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:57.017)
Yes, do I have to take over for this? I encountered that so much in my work and I actually even saw something like that play out in my own family. So what do you say to people in those situations? Those, I guess, would not be the mothers.
Judith Smith (19:13.684)
Well, first, I mean, I think the mothers themselves as they get older are approaching what gets verbalized by the mothers as what happens when I'm gone. So many people who have financial resources begin to create trusts and figure out a way that the money will be there. But if you don't have financial resources, you're looking for a person who will be able to take over.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:18.361)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:24.601)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (19:24.868)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (19:31.62)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:35.673)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (19:43.06)
But there are, you can get state guardians in the US. They're not easy to get, but it is one option for people to make sure that somebody will be overseeing your child if a sibling is not willing to step in.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:46.713)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (19:58.532)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:02.105)
Do you know if there's any research or maybe you encountered this? You were speaking to living mothers, so this might not be in what you had discovered, but I have seen where this dynamic we're all discussing plays out. The mother passes or the parent passes and the child who so desperately needed all of the help eventually figures out how to live on their own when the availability of the mother is no longer there.
because the siblings have pulled away. I work with people long term in my work and I've had the experience of being with this one family for 10 years and I saw this play out. And I'm wondering in your opinion, is there any similarity between what we tell mothers it's good to do? It's good to set boundaries. It's good to, like you said, hold that piece of paper. It's good to withhold resources and see.
what happens within a safe barrier because when the availability is completely gone, some individuals do seem to figure out their difficulties. That's what I've seen clinically. I'm wondering what you've seen in your work.
Judith Smith (21:16.564)
I think this is where there's a difference between substance use and serious mental illness. Because...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:21.305)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (21:21.956)
Mm.
Judith Smith (21:25.396)
person with substance use can, with treatment, stop. So if they really have hit rock bottom, they may really say, okay, I gotta stop drinking, I have to go into rehab. With serious mental illness, hitting rock bottom isn't gonna get rid of your psychosis.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:30.553)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (21:31.396)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:34.905)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (21:46.372)
Mm -mm. Mm -mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:48.089)
Such a good point.
Judith Smith (21:50.228)
So, you know, I, particularly for people with serious mental illness, but also with substance use, I have trouble with the whole concept of enabling, which somehow dovetails with what you're saying. I think it's very, to call a mother enabler doesn't help. She just, you know, you're telling her she's bad again. You know, I think if we really acknowledge how hard this is to really,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:59.513)
Hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (22:10.084)
yeah, for sure.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:10.585)
Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:15.385)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (22:20.276)
pull back and let them take more steps. And yes, I think the more independence we can give our kids, I mean, that's one of the thing about being a mother, we have two jobs. We're supposed to launch our kids and increase their independence. And we're also supposed to be there in crisis. So what do you do? I mean, these things go completely against each other. And I think it's what parents,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:37.945)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm. It's hard to balance.
Dr. Jeanne (22:44.516)
Mm. Mm.
Judith Smith (22:49.844)
even of healthy kids, you know, how much money do we give? Do we help with the house? What do we do? You know, it's, this is one of the dilemmas of a parent and each one does it in a different way. But I think serious mental illness taxes this problem in a particular way. And the thing about serious mental illness is how awful it is that people aren't able to stay medicated because they don't think they're ill.
Dr. Jeanne (23:19.596)
Or they don't like what the medication does or how it makes them feel and then they're on and then they're off and yeah, it's a vicious circle.
Judith Smith (23:20.756)
And this is.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:29.945)
Or I even see issues with insurance, like insurance not covering or things happening with providers. There's too many hoops.
Judith Smith (23:30.1)
I mean, we need.
Dr. Jeanne (23:32.676)
Mm.
Judith Smith (23:36.213)
Right. Right. And they're not doing sufficient research on new meds for psychiatric illness. I mean, this has sort of been a black hole left ignored. And I think with substance use treatment centers, there's such a range in quality and cost. They're really...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:42.649)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (23:44.172)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:45.401)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:57.433)
Definitely. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:00.1)
Yes.
Judith Smith (24:02.196)
Maybe they're better or not, but the cost can be so enormous for families. And it's hard.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:06.841)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:07.212)
Yeah. I'm interested. I'm interested also in, as I was following through your book and your research, this has been a three year journey with over, you know, 50 case studies and most of the children were between 28 and 58, if I remember correctly. And I understand that there are still stigmas that we attach to certain things that we really maybe shouldn't, but I'm curious to know what were the misconceptions.
about difficult adult children that you discovered during this research that we may not know about.
Judith Smith (24:43.924)
First of all, it's not a concept that existed before I named it. Instead, it was my daughter's an addict, my son's schizophrenic. So I think my discovery is making known that there's a whole group, I mean, every person who has serious mental illness, every person who has untreated substance use disorder has a mom and a dad.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:48.473)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:48.516)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:53.209)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:56.292)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:13.817)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (25:14.388)
And I think as a society, we are not recognizing the stress that they are under. We assume, you know, if you're, I'm a social worker and if you're a discharged social worker in a psychiatric hospital, if you know they were living with mom, you say, great, then they'll go home. You know, that is, that you don't have to find someplace else. And I think what I hope is that friends and family will begin to recognize.
Dr. Jeanne (25:20.228)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (25:32.9)
Hahaha.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:32.921)
Hmm... Mm -hmm.
Ahem.
Judith Smith (25:42.932)
these people's inner life. I think what's so awful for all the moms who come into my group is the sense of loneliness and isolation that has developed over the years because of the stigma, because people don't understand mental illness. They stop talking to their family. They stop talking to their best friends because people get tired of it and people don't understand. You run into somebody in the supermarket. What's the first thing you say?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:50.905)
Hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:09.913)
How are your kids? How's it going? The weather? Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (26:11.236)
Yeah.
Judith Smith (26:15.124)
Now, how are the kids comes before the wedding? We assume that's just a breezy, nice topic. But if your kid is on the street shooting heroin, what do you say? People are going to say, well, yeah, he's up and down.
Dr. Jeanne (26:15.596)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:20.601)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (26:20.996)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:25.913)
you
Dr. Jeanne (26:29.412)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:29.689)
Yeah. Yeah.
Judith Smith (26:31.156)
So the loneliness is awful. And I hope, you know, the mothers in my group helped to try to support each other in finding words for how do you talk in the supermarket? How do you talk when you go to a wedding? I mean, I think the grief for mothers when they go to their kids, friends, weddings, and the grandchildren are coming. And there's enormous grief that comes with this in terms of the unfulfilled potential.
Dr. Jeanne (26:47.204)
Mm.
Judith Smith (27:00.98)
of your adult child. But I think how we help Amelia, your question is how do we help parents work through the guilt? I suggest small steps, you know, and begin to articulate small steps you want to take, you know, for yourself, you know, beginning, making sure you're going to a doctor, making sure you...
Dr. Jeanne (27:01.124)
Mm. Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:16.281)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:22.777)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (27:27.828)
have alternative plans for Thanksgiving, I mean, that you really plan it through when you know that your son may come in and disrupt the whole thing. You know, even to say, I'm sorry, we'll have a separate Thanksgiving with you, but this is not going to work this time. You know, somehow you slowly help them find ways to really acknowledge that Thanksgiving's not going to be fun unless we really plan it differently.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:33.177)
Mm -hmm.
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:44.697)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (27:44.9)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (27:55.588)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:56.217)
I like your point about the, you're using the we, the collective, and I'm thinking of if a mother or a father, but if a mother takes on this entire responsibility by themselves in the isolation, as opposed to you naming this, which I'm grateful for, because I feel like I'm even thinking of clients that I now have a term I can use with them to help normalize what they're going through and have a greater conversation about it.
Judith Smith (28:18.996)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:25.273)
But if we have this term and this way of understanding it, how many more mothers might be likely to even talk to other family members openly? We all know, as you were saying, the likelihood that Thanksgiving might be disrupted. Can I loop you all in? Can we make this a collective experience instead of it being isolating? I'm hearing you saying that's really important in parenting an adult, difficult child.
Dr. Jeanne (28:34.596)
Hmm.
Judith Smith (28:53.14)
Yeah, and I mean, first to begin with yourself, to do some reality testing a month before, how are we gonna manage Thanksgiving? How are we gonna manage if they wanna come home for Christmas? How can we make this livable? But I also think what helps mothers, I think groups are really important and being in a group with other families who are in a similar situation.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:56.633)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:06.233)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (29:06.34)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:16.345)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (29:21.588)
It's much easier to feel compassion for Susie, who you get to know and see how her son is abusing her and say, this is crazy. She should not allow this. And if you can be compassionate for Susie, maybe you can become compassionate for yourself. So I highly recommend that people start running groups. And my next phase of work is to begin training.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:24.473)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (29:25.22)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:33.945)
Absolutely.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:41.145)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (29:41.508)
Mm.
Judith Smith (29:51.956)
therapists to use this model and to help mothers understand they have difficult adult kids. And I think I just started a new group two days ago and within 15 minutes, this one woman said, just sitting here with eight other people, suddenly the heaviness in my heart is lifting.
Dr. Jeanne (29:59.236)
Mm. Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:59.577)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (30:10.756)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:10.809)
Mm -hmm.
I love that.
Dr. Jeanne (30:14.244)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (30:15.86)
because you feel so crazy, you assume it's all you. And it can't be just the fact that your mom's had a substance use problem when there's eight other people who didn't necessarily have a substance use problem, their kids are also using it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:19.321)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (30:19.62)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:26.489)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (30:26.916)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:32.377)
Gosh, I could totally see a book like yours being distributed or put in a library in places like Al -Anon, like having it available to family members who are in those settings. I'm curious what your opinion on that is.
Dr. Jeanne (30:34.116)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (30:42.404)
yeah.
Judith Smith (30:48.18)
Absolutely. I think the structure of Al -Anon, I've never been able to talk to any administrator.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:55.893)
Let's send them this episode. I know, right?
Dr. Jeanne (30:59.14)
Yeah. Hello. Yeah.
Judith Smith (31:01.012)
I don't know who them is, you know. I think Al -Anon is wonderful. NAMI has family -to -family groups for parents with serious mental illness. I think having parents be part of Al -Anon is so helpful. And then, you know, another, you know, you at your place could be starting groups for these moms and dads.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:09.433)
right. Good point. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:17.721)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (31:18.34)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:24.441)
Mm -hmm. Yes.
Dr. Jeanne (31:26.308)
I'm wondering also in your research and your talks with these parents, if you could speak a little bit to what happens in terms of emotional blackmail. There are obviously varying degrees of that, but the worst kind of examples of that I saw was when grandchildren come into the picture, because now you are setting boundaries. You are trying to kind of...
protect yourself also as the mother, but every time you try to do it, you're met with this message of, well, then I'm just not going to have the kids see you again, or I'm going to keep the kids from you. And then, you know, it immediately launches into, I'm never going to see my grandchildren again. I have to do this. It's for the children. So I'm curious if you came across situations like that. And obviously each case has its own case, but it would be good if you could speak on that.
Judith Smith (32:22.708)
Well, there was one mom whose son's girlfriend accused him of domestic violence. He was arrested. And she then said that he couldn't see the kids and grandma couldn't see the kids. And she went to court. And she wanted those kids. And she also...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:45.881)
Wow. Good for her.
Dr. Jeanne (32:47.364)
for her.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:51.257)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (32:52.276)
And her son was not, I mean, the young woman, I think, you know, I wasn't there, I knew nothing, was probably really wanting out. And I don't think her son was a bad, that bad a guy, but she went to court. She was not going to let those kids be lost to her. But often, if especially low income people who have to, when their kids have problems, they have to let their kids move into their house in small spaces.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:01.017)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:10.745)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:14.777)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (33:21.524)
and they often arrive with the kids, the grandkids.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:21.689)
Mm -hmm.
True.
Judith Smith (33:26.228)
So you have not only the difficult adult child, but you have the kids and the house is chaotic and it's very hard. You don't want to kick out your grandkids to be homeless. So it's very, very complicated. And...
Dr. Jeanne (33:26.756)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:39.993)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (33:40.228)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:43.513)
Mm.
Judith Smith (33:46.292)
awfully painful to have to make these decisions. You know, we, mothers love their kids and they love their grandkids and they certainly don't want to cause harm. But then how do you, you don't want to cause harm to yourself and how do you figure out what, what's the next step?
Dr. Jeanne (33:53.22)
I'm gonna go.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:02.329)
It's so difficult.
Dr. Jeanne (34:02.7)
Why is it that you chose to focus on difficult mothering in this book, especially from the mother's perspective and not from a parental perspective or also including, was there a reason for that?
Judith Smith (34:17.844)
Well, first it started out methodological. As a qualitative study, I only had a small sample, so to control for gender, I didn't have enough people that I could do it. But then the more I thought about it and the more I read, particularly reading in the caregiving literature, there's a researcher, Nancy Heumann, who writes, she's a feminist gerontologist, who said, it's crazy we call it caregiving.
Dr. Jeanne (34:29.22)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:29.721)
Hmm.
Judith Smith (34:45.844)
as if it's a gender neutral, whoever happens to be in that role, 90 % of the people who are taking care of their adult parents or taking care of younger people are women. And I think also parenting assumes that women and men are doing the exact same thing. But actually, anybody who's done a time study to look at the difference between men and women with young children, women are taking...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:59.097)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:06.137)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:13.305)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (35:14.836)
regardless of working, are, according to both the men and the women in the family, the women are doing much more housework, doing much more planning in their head for childcare, are doing.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:26.073)
Amen.
Dr. Jeanne (35:27.3)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (35:29.46)
doing much more of the emotional work. And I think our society has images of a good mother in a way we don't yet have images of a good father. I mean, it's starting to be. But as women's identity as a female, if you have children, is so tied into wanting to be a good mother, wanting to be seen as a good mother. I mean, this goes back centuries.
Dr. Jeanne (35:40.516)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (35:54.308)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (35:59.092)
And I just think there's a cultural piece for women about parenting that's different from men. If I was 30 years younger, I would repeat the whole project with men and see what happened. But right now, I think that's very helpful for women to be with each other. And I also think having a difficult adult child often...
breaks up marriages. I mean, this is marriage. We all know marriage is hard no matter what. But if you have a kid who's struggling, being on the same page, being able to compromise becomes extremely difficult. So for right now, I think helping women, and I think it would be great if people started father's groups and how this works. I'm glad that I did what I did. And I think...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:28.921)
Mmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (36:40.836)
Yeah.
Judith Smith (36:54.964)
for the groups, it would be very different if there were also men in them.
Dr. Jeanne (36:58.884)
Yeah. So for those of our audience listening that resonate with what you're saying today and with the message, is there maybe one tip or point or a piece of advice that you can give them if they are struggling that they can try to incorporate today?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:59.065)
grade.
Judith Smith (37:18.804)
Well, first, I think you want to know that you're not alone. This is, you did not create this whole thing. Maybe, yes, you were not the perfect parent. Maybe you had issues as a child that led to your own issues. But if your adult child is using substances, has serious mental illness, there's millions of other people in that situation who are also struggling. This is a...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:45.369)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (37:47.012)
Hmm.
Judith Smith (37:48.724)
societal problem that we don't have enough substance abuse treatment centers, we do not have a good mental health system, and families are being left to be the only safety net for these kids. And this is an impossible situation. You cannot do this alone. I mean, I think the two pieces, you cannot do this alone, and you are not alone. And if you really take in that this is more of a structural problem and start finding groups,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:02.777)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:09.209)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (38:11.652)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:16.185)
Mm -hmm.
Judith Smith (38:18.644)
where you can begin to openly in a non -judgmental environment talk about your situation, something will lift and you will begin to see this as a problem that's outside of you, not of your own causing.
Dr. Jeanne (38:33.284)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:34.681)
Gosh, I love that.
Dr. Jeanne (38:36.676)
Emilia, if you could hold up that beautiful book for us again. So Judy's book is difficult. Could you tell us where can our audience buy this book? gosh. Someone's at front gate. Sorry about that.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:39.705)
Absolutely.
Judith Smith (38:48.052)
Sure.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:50.201)
Front gate. Do you want me to hold the book up again?
Dr. Jeanne (38:54.148)
Yes, please. So Judy's book is called Difficult. Could you perhaps tell us where our audience can go to buy it or pre -order it? Is it on sale already? Tell us everything we need to know.
Judith Smith (39:06.964)
Yes. It's Amazon in every online bookstore. It is not in the bookstores because my publisher doesn't put books in the bookstore for whatever reason. But every online bookstore has it. Also, you can ask your library to buy it for you. Every single library will purchase a book that a customer asks, and they all have forms on their website.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:17.785)
Yeah
Dr. Jeanne (39:18.212)
Hahaha!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:31.705)
good advice.
Dr. Jeanne (39:34.82)
Nice.
Judith Smith (39:37.044)
And also if you come to my website, which is difficultmothering .com, I also have a Facebook page, it's difficult mothering, you'll find me in every way. So it's Judith at difficult mothering. I'm easy to find. I'm one of the few people who's really looking at mothers. So if you just look at, type in difficult adult children, I will pop up and you know, reach out.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:47.833)
Hehehehe.
Dr. Jeanne (39:48.324)
Okay.
Judith Smith (40:06.996)
for these resources. I think the book makes women feel much less alone. Just reading other stories by people who've gone through. I just talked to somebody whose son had tried to kill her and she had never really spoken openly about it. And reading about this in the book, she just couldn't believe that somebody else was openly talking about it. And I think being able to see it, feel it,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:21.785)
my goodness.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:31.289)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (40:32.196)
Wow.
Judith Smith (40:35.732)
as something outside of you will bring you relief and help you to make some decisions that make sense for you.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:43.097)
Absolutely.
Dr. Jeanne (40:43.116)
This was such an amazing conversation. Please go out and buy your copy of Judy's book today. You can also go to our episode notes and links and be referred to Judy's Facebook homepage and of course to Amazon and other places where you can read the book. Thank you so much for joining us today. We had so much fun talking to you. Thank you. Bye.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:05.241)
Thank you so much.
Judith Smith (41:06.932)
Thank you. Really good to meet you both. Thank you. Bye -bye.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:11.065)
Bye everyone.
Dr. Jeanne (41:13.732)
Thank you so much, Judy. That was amazing. Are you happy?