Drs. Amelia Kelley and Jeanne are joined by Melissa Holder. A conversation about a rare medical condition turns into an informative episode on medical gaslighting.
Drs. Amelia Kelley and Jeanne are joined by Melissa Holder. A conversation about a rare medical condition, sarcoidosis, turns into an informative episode on medical gaslighting. Melissa shares her personal experience with sarcoidosis, specifically how it affected her kidneys and her experiences with medical gaslighting.
Key Takeaways
Links to Melissa Holder
Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:01.88)
Hello, Melissa. Thank you for joining us today. I am super excited because I've had the opportunity to be on your podcast, Girl Talk, a few times and it was really neat. We did a regular episode, but then also you had me on with one of your other fabulous guests to have a bigger conversation around getting out of abusive relationships. So that was really like, I don't know, that was a really great, powerful.
episode I think you did. So yeah, so we're so excited to have you here today because you are going to shed light on something that I'm not super aware of and I think more people and women especially should be aware of and that is the medical diagnosis of sarcoidosis. So disclaimer, Melissa is not a doctor. So we're going to...
Melissa Ann (00:32.148)
Yes.
Dr. Jeanne (00:34.169)
Wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (00:56.633)
do our best to fill in the blanks on the medical stats and details, but rather a survivor. So from your standpoint, could you start by telling us what sarcoidosis is and how it affects the body?
Melissa Ann (01:12.446)
Yeah, so I'll just keep it as it was explained to me as you know that I am not a physician. So as it was explained to me, it is an autoimmune disease and it tells your body, hey, whatever organ it's attacking, body, it's not supposed to be there. So go destroy it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:27.672)
Mm
Dr. Jeanne (01:30.403)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:30.743)
Mm.
Melissa Ann (01:33.562)
And so it sends, your body sends little tumors to that area to destroy whatever organ it is. For me, it was my kidneys. So it, it sent, you know, these tumors to my kidneys and told the body that kidney is not supposed to be there. So get rid of it. And that is what psychodosis is in a nutshell, but typically it attacks individual's lungs.
Dr. Jeanne (01:33.977)
you
Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:43.743)
my goodness.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (01:47.736)
Mm
Dr. Jeanne (02:01.199)
Whoa.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:01.3)
Okay.
Melissa Ann (02:02.344)
Yeah, so it'll tack your lungs and your breathing.
Dr. Jeanne (02:05.657)
So it sounds a little bit because I had a couple of friends and my mom as well who has lupus and I'm also not a doctor but it sounds a little bit like that because that as I understood it is also the body kind of attacking healthy cells and seeing them as well you shouldn't be here but this sounds very specific like it's an organ that's being attacked more specifically the lungs but in your case it was a kidney. Do you think that's correct?
Melissa Ann (02:34.75)
I think they're, don't, you know, I don't want to speculate on the two because I really don't know a lot about lupus, but for sure they're certainly in the family, right? I think the two of them are very, very destructive. Unlike Sarcoid, my Sarcoid did its damage and then it went away. So, you know, but I don't, I think lupus kind of lingers around.
Dr. Jeanne (02:46.797)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:56.921)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (02:57.11)
wow.
Dr. Jeanne (03:01.495)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:03.202)
Yeah.
Melissa Ann (03:03.376)
and continues to be destructive.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:06.476)
Mm -hmm. So what are some of the symptoms? Like what led you to even go to the doctor in the first place? And maybe some of what were your symptoms, but also maybe some common overarching symptoms for people who have it attack other areas of the body.
Dr. Jeanne (03:18.941)
Mm.
Melissa Ann (03:24.106)
Yeah, so my sarcoidosis happened in 2004, and I don't think they really knew a lot then. And I had a cough prior to that for three years. So for three years, and I'm not a little cough, like I was hacking up a lung cough.
Dr. Jeanne (03:38.136)
Whoa.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:38.201)
my goodness.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:44.13)
Yeah. Ugh.
Melissa Ann (03:46.563)
And I kept going to my physician. kept going to, and she kept sending me to an ENT and nothing. So finally I had a physical.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:54.326)
Mm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:57.976)
Mmm.
Melissa Ann (04:01.038)
And during that physical, they saw that my kidney function was deteriorated. This is after three years. And so I had a very good nephrologist who really started doing some digging and sent, did a biopsy of the kidneys, sent that off to John Hopkins and came back with the sarcoid.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:09.518)
Three years.
Melissa Ann (04:21.956)
and they were able to treat it. But that was three years of not knowing what was wrong with me. That three years that could have saved my kidneys.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:32.632)
Terrible You know, I can't help but think about We've talked a little bit just you and I and I know it's kind of something we commonly all Dread and and don't ever want to have happen to us But at any point did you feel like you were being medically gaslit because that's three years of not having the appropriate tests done was it You know something where you weren't being listened to or was it it's just so difficult to
Melissa Ann (04:57.716)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:01.762)
diagnose or both? I'm just curious what you think.
Melissa Ann (05:04.542)
Yeah, I think if it wasn't for the nephrologist, I don't think a resolution would have happened. think my physician at the time, she was just kind of blowing it off. And I think also the ENT, they were bouncing me back and forth for three years. But you'd have to say at some point, OK, you're not supposed to have a hacking cough for three years. And there's something going on.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:28.974)
Right. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (05:29.177)
Mm.
Melissa Ann (05:34.458)
you know, do a battery of tests to see what it is. Even, you know, when you talk about gaslight, the same physician, you know, some of the medication that they gave me, and my story is like so intertwined, some of the they gave me to treat sarcoid gave me non -Hodgkin's lymphoma. But even...
Dr. Jeanne (05:38.447)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:51.544)
Please unpack it, we're here for it.
Dr. Jeanne (05:52.887)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (06:00.41)
my gosh.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:00.451)
What?
Melissa Ann (06:01.458)
Yeah, so at the time, I felt a knot underneath my armpit and I went to the same physician and she was like, I don't feel a knot. She chuckled. She was like, I don't feel a knot. So she was like, let me do a chest x -ray and maybe the sarcoid is flaring up. And so I still have the card where it says negative and that was it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:16.622)
my gosh.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:25.016)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (06:31.42)
So, you know, I Googled a doctor because I'm like, I know I'm not supposed to have a knot underneath my armpit. So I Googled a general surgeon. I went to him. He said, yeah, I feel a knot. And he started a battery of tests.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:31.457)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:37.781)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:45.912)
that. So you just gave such a good example of what we unnecessarily but sometimes have to do in medical situations where if you bring a concern to your doctor, you know your body better than they do, whether or not they have education and you are dismissed or your concern is overlooked. The tests are not proposed to be taken because some of us don't know what tests.
Dr. Jeanne (06:49.219)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:14.69)
we're supposed to have. And sometimes we're not given the full information about our tests and things that we need to know. I'm so happy for your health that you thought, no, this doesn't feel right. Something feels off and I'm going to look further. That's a big thing with medical gas lighting. If you are being medically gas lit,
Melissa Ann (07:21.876)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:37.58)
you should look for another provider. You should look for someone else that is going to take it one step further.
Dr. Jeanne (07:44.878)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:46.422)
You know, I think it would be, in my opinion, irresponsible for us not to point out the fact that black women are more likely to be medically gaslit and that from what you have taught us so far about this in our conversations before we got to sit down with you today, black women are also more impacted, more commonly impacted, I guess I will say, by this diagnosis. So I was wondering from your perspective if you could share some thoughts on
that.
Melissa Ann (08:17.556)
Yeah, I do. think where, you you hit the nail on the head, black women are medically more impacted for a number of reasons. I mean, number of instances specifically, you you can go to pregnancy, you know. I think there was a time where, I think it was Serena Williams had a blood clot in her lung and she wasn't listened to. And if she didn't take...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:31.778)
Mm
Melissa Ann (08:40.772)
her own matters in her own hands, she wouldn't be here. So I think black women aren't necessarily listened to, you're kind of blown off as if you're not intelligent enough to make your own decisions or do your own research or know your body. Like you know your body.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:45.528)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:01.098)
Ugh. Yeah. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:01.119)
Mm. Mm.
Melissa Ann (09:03.103)
Like everyone else, like you two know your body, I know my body. I know when something is off and when I need to go to a doctor, when I don't need to go to a doctor. But I think all of it is intertwined with the gas lighting in that doctors sometimes, or the medical field sometimes feels like,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:08.194)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:08.6)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:18.05)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (09:27.354)
They own the specimen, but you are the captain of your body and everything within it, right? They're there to give you guidance, but you can ask other doctors. And I think we have a fear of saying, I might betray my doctor if I go to another one and ask a second opinion. No, you have to make decisions that are gonna keep you on earth, right, as long as possible.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:35.244)
Mm -hmm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:45.683)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:46.456)
you
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:56.884)
Absolutely.
Melissa Ann (09:58.543)
And I think as, I've been in, you know, I've lived in North Carolina and I've gone to physicians that were not black and they didn't want to touch me. You know, so, you know, it's just, it is the nature of the beast, but you have to be diligent about your health.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:10.773)
my goodness.
Dr. Jeanne (10:20.761)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:22.956)
when you...
when you did finally get listened to, what was different about, in your opinion, what are good signs that you're on the right track with the doctor you're choosing and that they are respecting where you're coming from? And the reason I preface it this way, one of the things that I talk with other people up at Medically Gaslit, specifically, black women most, then women and then men of color,
And there's this kind of triage of individuals who are at least statistically more likely to be gaslit medically. There are also myths that are carried in the medical community. A very old myth, something along the lines that black bodies are more tolerant to pain. You've heard that myth before?
Melissa Ann (11:15.956)
Mm
Yep, the high tolerance to pain because we, know, historically they've likened us to animals. So you don't feel pain per se as someone else, as much as someone else would feel pain. So your pain tolerance is higher.
Dr. Jeanne (11:19.033)
Wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:30.114)
Hmm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:37.826)
Which is insane. Right. It doesn't, it's no. It's not even rational and it's ridiculous and it's dangerous. It's a dangerous myth.
Dr. Jeanne (11:39.432)
Yeah.
Melissa Ann (11:41.161)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (11:41.966)
No.
Melissa Ann (11:48.328)
Yeah, and then you have the strong black woman piece of it too, like, you can handle it. know, that's added to it as well.
Dr. Jeanne (11:48.493)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (11:55.971)
you
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:56.91)
Okay, so you mean culturally coming from the community or you mean coming from the doctor's perspective? Right, as opposed to like the fragile white woman. Right, but those ideas and those myths, those stereotypes, they impact the way that...
Melissa Ann (12:02.888)
They're doctors. Yeah, it's okay. You can handle it.
Dr. Jeanne (12:06.383)
Hmm.
Melissa Ann (12:09.257)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:22.014)
Some people, doctors and professionals will either consciously or subconsciously treat their clients and their patients.
Dr. Jeanne (12:29.145)
Hmm.
Melissa Ann (12:30.238)
Yeah. And I want to caveat and just say it doesn't matter sometimes what the nationality is of the doctor because the doctor that ignored me was a black woman.
Dr. Jeanne (12:45.295)
you
Melissa Ann (12:46.26)
So you can be gaslit by anyone. It's just the nature of whom that physician is. So it's not necessarily one demographic. I've had some amazing physicians along the way as well that happen to be white men or white women.
Dr. Jeanne (12:56.228)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:03.596)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm, right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:10.69)
Right. Mm -hmm. Were you gonna say something,
Dr. Jeanne (13:10.692)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (13:15.309)
Yeah, no, I'm just thinking of something similar that we used to deal with a lot in South Africa when I was still in my old career in human rights. And one of the big issues we faced there is how black women were treated when they would go to get rape kits done after they'd been assaulted. And the education that we needed to relaunch to educate the nurses
and the emergency room staff on how to work with these victims and to not medically gaslit them to say, but are you sure this happened to you? Are you sure you need the test? I mean, that is so ridiculous to even, you can't even think of that as being logical. So I really...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:55.278)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:02.978)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (14:05.675)
I have so much compassion with where you're coming from. I've seen it so much in many of the African development community countries that I've worked in as well. You know, even where healthcare isn't so accessible and it's so difficult to get doctors to listen to you and to care about the symptoms and what you're going through and that it's serious. And even if you yourself feel that it's serious, you still need to be taken seriously.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:32.066)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (14:33.832)
Yeah, I've had times like when I was younger, like going to OBGYN and being misdiagnosed, you know, the OBGYN had me in tears. like, you have these warts and you know, and I'm like, and I go to another one. They're like, no, they're not warts. They've just never seen a black.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:47.15)
you
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:55.328)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (14:55.491)
Yeah.
Melissa Ann (15:03.324)
vagina. But you know, it's just things like that that get you an atensy, at a tizzy and then not only that, now you've misdiagnosed me. Now you're giving me medication for something that I don't even have. And that whole cycle. And then what does that medication cause?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:04.937)
Mmm. my goodness.
Dr. Jeanne (15:06.851)
Jeez.
Dr. Jeanne (15:17.729)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:18.168)
brain.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:22.39)
Mm -hmm. You know, it's not, and luckily everything was fine, but this is a PSA for women to go out and get your mammograms.
Dr. Jeanne (15:23.093)
Mm. Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:33.526)
Recently, you I went and had one and the results, Dr. G knows about this because I was very stressed out about this. The results were off, like something was asymmetrical or something where they needed to rescan me. But the woman, the nurse who initially called and let me know what was going on left out so much information.
Dr. Jeanne (15:40.239)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:58.508)
that I didn't realize the seriousness of the fact that I really did need to go back in for this test. So, right, so once I finally kind of put two and two together, and this is also a PSA to prioritize your health and slow down because this last spring I was really busy, I didn't really prioritize it, and suddenly somehow the dust settled enough where I thought, wow, I...
should have followed up on that. So as I'm looking through my report, I'm realizing something very important that could have been a problem was not communicated to me. So I had to then call, leave a voicemail, and in my voicemail to the nurses say, I need someone who is going to call me back and share all of the information.
from my report and explain the information to me and not leave anything out so I can make an informed decision. Like it was almost like I had to speak to them as if I was preparing to be gaslit in a way, know, kind of like patient advocate. And it's to me, we should be overly informed. So I'll then back it up again.
Dr. Jeanne (16:46.2)
Mm
Dr. Jeanne (16:49.891)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (17:00.227)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:09.194)
I've been treated for hypothyroidism for easily two decades now. And I went to a checkup recently and I asked a couple questions. The PA I was talking to is pretty holistic in her approach, had these different ideas, which I appreciate. And she mentioned that she has Hashimoto's and how she manages something. And I kind of chuckled and I said, don't have Hashimoto's, I just have hypothyroidism. She said, hold on a second. She went back in my chart, she said, no,
You were diagnosed with Hashimoto's four years ago.
Melissa Ann (17:42.646)
my gosh. Are you serious?
Dr. Jeanne (17:44.43)
What? That is incredible!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:46.332)
Never told. Was no one ever told me.
Right. And this is something that impacted my fertility, that impacted my mental health, my physical health, never communicated. And there's different lifestyle changes that you should make if you have Hashimoto's. I would love for us to have a doc on here to talk about that at some point, because it's very, it's actually again, more common in women. Geez, aren't we lucky? So I think, you know, whether it be that, you know,
Dr. Jeanne (18:14.67)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:19.818)
you're being gaslit because there's myths about a community or a race or a culture or whether it's that your doctor thinks that you're not well prepared to hear all the information. It's okay to ask for your records to ask for your results and to ask them to walk you through the results. Like it's okay to ask questions and I don't want to say be annoying but be annoying. know like ask until you understand.
Dr. Jeanne (18:30.305)
Mm, mm.
Dr. Jeanne (18:37.559)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (18:45.561)
Yeah.
Melissa Ann (18:47.046)
Yeah, I have done that. After I had non -Hodgkin's, I would have to go get CT exams every six months and then every year. But I take that result and have a conversation with the physician to tell me, do these things mean?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:00.386)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (19:13.091)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:13.335)
Right.
Melissa Ann (19:14.431)
And if you don't do that, you're never going to be in the know about your body.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:20.2)
Mm -hmm, absolutely. And I should say everything was fine. I did go back and get another mammogram and everything was fine. It's very common for there to be issues because the tests are very finicky. So getting back to the diagnosis we're talking about today, and I heard you shorten it. Do some people say sarcoid? Okay, good. That's easier. with sarcoid,
Dr. Jeanne (19:20.325)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (19:24.606)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (19:28.749)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (19:44.985)
Haha.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:47.83)
Are there genetic factors and components to it and does it run in families? Because I'm wondering if anyone listening knows someone who's had it, is there a way that they can check in on their own health or is there something they should be more aware of? And what do you know of that?
Dr. Jeanne (19:57.807)
Mm
Melissa Ann (20:06.748)
not quite sure. don't think, you know, when I had it, like I said, there was very little information. Even my nephrologist was like, we don't know a lot about the disease or even how to treat it. I ended up going to a naturalist, you know, herbal doctor who told me exactly what to do and it went away. So.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:17.634)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:21.538)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:27.438)
Awesome.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:32.635)
I'm on the end of my seat. What did you have to do?
Dr. Jeanne (20:35.49)
Yeah.
Melissa Ann (20:36.294)
It was as simple as taking your lacking B and C vitamins.
Dr. Jeanne (20:41.849)
Wow, that's incredible.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:41.917)
my goodness.
Melissa Ann (20:43.93)
And it was as simple as taking B and C vitamins.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:48.046)
I would imagine high doses for a period of time.
Melissa Ann (20:50.9)
for a period of time, yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (20:53.231)
But by that time the damage had already been done to your kidneys.
Melissa Ann (20:56.234)
Yeah, so today I'm in end stage renal disease. you know, it took 20 years, but, you know, my kidneys went on a decline. It did all of the damage and then it went away. Yeah, so it did its full destruction. But, you know, I had really good, really, really good nephrologist.
Dr. Jeanne (21:00.834)
my god.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:14.722)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (21:20.668)
in Atlanta, he eventually retired, but he really took care of me from the start of my diagnosis. And I have a really, really good one now, who is keeping me alive.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:35.864)
Mm -hmm. I think that also speaks to the importance of alternative treatments. Maybe not necessarily, you know, if you have cancer, you're not gonna go get a massage. Well, you should get a massage, you're not, you deserve a massage, but you're not going to be doing it to treat the cancer necessarily. there are plenty of diagnoses that it seems like going to someone who's looking at the preventative piece, you know, kind of peeling back, not just,
Dr. Jeanne (21:49.079)
Yeah
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:04.768)
medicating but also looking what are the precursors and like you said, people don't value B and C are very important. Like high doses of them, for any of you who have irregular cycles, I just learned that if you have really bad PMS, if you take high doses of vitamin C leading up especially the week leading up but just throughout, it can help you regulate your progesterone.
Right? So there's all these things that if we could be empowered, I think women's bodies are so complex that sometimes, you know, medicine doesn't know what to do with us.
Dr. Jeanne (22:40.985)
Mm.
Melissa Ann (22:44.67)
think traditional medicine interrupted what God's plan was for all of our bodies because think about our ancestors. They didn't have methyl trexate and all these different types of medications that the pharmaceutical companies are making.
Dr. Jeanne (22:44.899)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:59.082)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (23:05.745)
to cure not even just the symptoms, right? Not get to the heart of the problem. They had to use herbs. They had to find vitamin C and vitamin and minerals and stuff that were going to fuel the body and cure, get down to the root cause of what was happening. So, you know, I think obviously traditional medicine is here.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:10.306)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:18.498)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:23.987)
Hmm.
Melissa Ann (23:30.512)
I always say in the natural to do this for, you know, the supernatural to occur, but, you and they are here to help us, but, you know, we have to use some common sense to research on your medications that they're giving you. Telling you the medic, one of the medications that was given to me caused the, the, the non Hodgkin's lymphoma. So.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:41.922)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (23:46.371)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:55.431)
Dr. Jeanne (23:56.984)
Yeah, and I can really sympathize with that because in terms of the medications that they're giving to you and they're not telling you all of the side effects, with my panic disorder diagnosis, I went through many different things, including really bad migraine attacks, irritable bowel syndrome, and all of these different things need to be treated. And everybody wants to give you something to take for it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:17.143)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:23.689)
And when I say, okay, but what are the side effects? It's always, no, it's minimal. And in the beginning I was like, okay, you don't ask any further questions because they're also always in such a hurry to kind of get you out of the office, you know? And then after I started feeling all of these horrific side effects on my body, I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, what do you mean minimal?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:33.422)
Mm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:36.93)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:45.827)
what are the minimal side effects? Because for me, it may not be minimal. I may be the one that gets the side effects. So can you explain to me all of the side effects? And they get so frustrated with you that you dare ask because, you know, why would they recommend this medication to you if they didn't think it was in your best interest? But the point is that you're the one going home, taking the medication and dealing with the side effects. So you're the one that should be making the decision as to whether
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:54.487)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (24:59.465)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:59.927)
Mm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:09.72)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (25:16.7)
How are you gonna weigh it up your quality of life versus the medication versus you're the one that needs to weigh that up? So Obviously you need all of the information Yeah
Melissa Ann (25:22.729)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:23.576)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (25:26.558)
Right, and you can say no. Right, if you do your research, you can say no. You can say no. You know, I've had doctors like say to me because I was asking questions about medications, I'm really gun shy because of what happened to me and I was asking questions and she was like, if you're not gonna listen to what I tell you, then I can't be your doctor.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:30.488)
Good point.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:35.244)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:53.517)
What?
Melissa Ann (25:54.718)
Yeah, and I'm like, okay, well, this is a partnership. It's my body. And I get to make just as much as the decisions, just as much as you do. So it's not a good match.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:59.576)
Yes.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:04.884)
Absolutely. Absolutely. Right. I mean, there's a very big difference, I think, between someone going AMA, like against medical advice. Let's say a doctor's working with you. You're in liver failure because you continue to drink. This is none of us here, luckily, but I'm just using it as an example. And
Dr. Jeanne (26:04.911)
Hmm.
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:28.332)
The doctor continues to give you advice or give you guidance and they really take your whole body and your whole situation into account and someone comes in and they continue to do something that's dangerous for them. In that situation, mean doctors do have to set boundaries and they do have to say, you know, this is not, I can't treat and I say this as a clinician. If I have a client, let's say taking the alcoholism as an example, who continues to drink heavily and in their treatment plan, I...
I say that they need to involve themselves in some sort of support group, whether it be 12 step, first step, refuge recovery, smart recovery, I don't care, know, having a...
you know, a person of faith in their church that's supporting them, whatever, like just someone outside just my therapy office. If they continue to engage in dangerous behavior, come to me and say, I'm not following the treatment plan. As a clinician, I do have to set boundaries and say, I don't know if this level of care is appropriate for you.
And then I will have to make a referral to a higher level of care because then I become liable. So I am pointing out the fact that for medical providers, there is a liability piece if they feel like they're, if they feel in or into it that the person they're working with, their patient is not following medical advice. There's this piece, this boundary. However, that is very different than if I have a patient come in and I'm recommending that, you know, I think you have generalized anxiety, so we need
Melissa Ann (27:33.916)
Yeah
Dr. Jeanne (27:48.655)
Mm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:59.35)
start doing deep breathing exercises every week. And my patient says, well actually breathing exercises make me feel more anxious, which can happen to some people with anxiety disorder and panic attacks and trauma as Dr. Jean raises her hand. So let's say I'm proposing, no, we have to be doing these breathing exercises every week because it is good for you. So let's do that. And I justify it and I hammer down and they say, you know, Dr. Kelly, I'm sorry, I just can't.
If I then equate it to well, you know what if you're not gonna listen my advice about the breathing exercises I don't think I could be your therapist anymore It's almost as if that same thing what you just said if you're asking simple questions and Wanting feedback and the doctor saying I don't think I can be your doctor if you're going to do that to me It's the same thing as if I disregard a client because they don't Feel good using a treatment. I would like to use right
Melissa Ann (28:57.448)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (28:57.775)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:59.316)
Mm -hmm. So asking yourself the question is my doctor Dismissing me or disagreeing with me because I'm doing something dangerous You know asking you can even ask am I going against medical advice by asking you questions? Probably not you're probably just asking for medical advice and feedback. Yeah
Melissa Ann (29:22.538)
Right. Or asking questions because you're seeking to understand, right? The best doctors are the ones where I've had, where they've given me something and they ask, are you taking, they're looking at the results of blood work or whatever. And they're like, are you taking blah? And I'm like, no, well.
Dr. Jeanne (29:29.581)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:44.054)
Mm -hmm
Melissa Ann (29:46.62)
Here's why you should take it because this result says this and if you don't fix this then this will happen. Okay that's better than you need to take this and if you do it right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:50.988)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (29:51.458)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:55.179)
Mm -hmm
Dr. Jeanne (29:55.257)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:58.842)
just take it and I'm not explaining it. Right. And if anything, you just gave the example of the best patient. The best patients are the ones who care about the information they're being given and who invest their time because likewise, I can make a suggestion to someone, they never ask a question, they don't tell me they don't want to do it, they just leave my office, they come back, I say, you do your homework? And they say, no.
Dr. Jeanne (30:01.113)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (30:12.482)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:26.336)
no explanation, there's nothing to work with. So as a doctor, would, you know, I'm working on people's mental health. tell my little one, my four year old sometimes says, what kind of doctor are you? I go, I'm like a doctor for feelings. That's how I explain it to him. But you know, someone who is treating your body, I would imagine you would want your patients to be curious and to be inquisitive and to be active in their own treatment.
Dr. Jeanne (30:41.283)
Hahaha.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:56.81)
Mm -hmm, right. So keeping all this in mind, know, thinking about what you went through, where are you at today? Like how has this impacted your mental health, physical health, and why was this, there were so many topics we could have talked about, but when you brought this one up, it just hit our hearts, and we just were thinking, yes, this is something that should be talked about. You know, where are you at today, and what do you hope for?
Dr. Jeanne (31:21.58)
Mm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:25.895)
know, women to hear and black women to hear and doctors, you know, what do want to communicate about this?
Melissa Ann (31:33.194)
Yeah, think women really need the nut, the nut -nut is, I'll work backwards, is you need to listen to your body, right? And make decisions based upon how you feel about your body. Make sure that you have the right team of physicians.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:42.478)
Hmm.
Melissa Ann (31:51.72)
that a team that's talking to each other, not only with you, but with each other, and has your best interest, and not doing the gas lighting. And that takes time. have to build that. It has to be organic. And you have to build that network of doctors. Where I am today, I think also, you know,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:02.126)
Mm
Melissa Ann (32:16.678)
where I am today is end -stage renal failure, right, disease. And so that means I need a kidney. So, you know, it took from the sarcoid to the non -Hodgkin's lymphoma to the end -stage renal disease. I think if you take
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:19.682)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:23.935)
My goodness.
Melissa Ann (32:36.062)
Better care, not better care, but just again, listening to your body and making sure you're listening to your doctors and doing exercise and eating right. And, you know, a lot of our diet is tied to some of these things as well, you know? So making sure, you know, and, you know, people say, life is short, you know, and you're always like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is true.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:53.122)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:04.909)
Hmm.
Melissa Ann (33:05.544)
You know, it could be in an instance, you know, I was moving along fine. And then all of sudden my kidneys said, boom, we're not working anymore. Now we're, you know, you're, you're scrambling to figure out how to get well and a blink of an eye. So I think just taking care of yourself and enjoying life and not being tied down to
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:11.042)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:14.616)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (33:14.799)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:21.186)
Mm -hmm.
Melissa Ann (33:31.85)
people places things that don't benefit you as an individual. And that's a part of mental health. And so my mental health fluctuates, you know, there's good days and bad days.
Dr. Jeanne (33:36.082)
Mmm. Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:37.464)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:42.018)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, that's so well said. And you had mentioned your diet being connected to it, the way you treat yourself being connected to it, and not prioritizing everyone else's needs first and instead prioritizing your own needs first, I think just really speaks to what you're saying.
Dr. Jeanne (34:06.073)
Yeah.
Melissa Ann (34:06.076)
You know, and my therapist has always said, you're always taking care of other people. What about Melissa?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:13.344)
Amen.
Dr. Jeanne (34:13.615)
Hmm.
Melissa Ann (34:15.036)
And I think we forget that, you know, what about you? And you gets lost. And, you know, I think that is what we as women have to figure out. Stop getting lost. Take care of you, you know?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:20.003)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:30.082)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (34:30.671)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (34:34.799)
I resonate so deeply with what you said. Thank you so much for saying that and for that message because, know, especially the part where you were saying you were going along fine, then all of a sudden your kidneys stopped working. You think life is short, but it really is and you should prioritize. And I've been dealing with a lot of health challenges this year and I've just recently come out of another one and
What you're saying means so much to me because this is one of the key things that has been communicated to me in the past week and that I have realized and it really gives me a lot more push to prioritize that more deeply and just take care of me and my body and listen to my body because I'm very guilty also of not being too afraid to ask questions and
afraid I upset somebody, especially a doctor. So it meant a lot to me what you just said. Thank you so much.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:32.984)
you
Melissa Ann (35:38.218)
Absolutely. I think too. I'll also say we get in our own way. Right? We're busy. I'm taking care of kids. I'm doing this, I'm doing that, I'm doing this. I'm not going to the doctor. I'll wait three months and I'll go to the doctor. Well, in three months, whatever's in your body is working its way getting worse and worse and worse and blowing up. And so, you know, stop for a second. Stop.
Dr. Jeanne (35:43.005)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:56.365)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (36:00.269)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:02.883)
Mmm. Absolutely.
Melissa Ann (36:05.938)
and take care of yourself. All those things will still be there.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:12.386)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (36:14.18)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:15.052)
And if you consider, you know, if it's not a disease or an illness or a tumor, if it's not something growing physically over those three months, you can try your best to push it to the back, but it's going to creep up subconsciously. It's going to impact your mental health. That was what I noticed when I realized, you were literally just speaking to me. I mean, I waited months before I finally went back and got the second scan to realize everything was fine.
But those last few weeks leading up to the scan, I was consumed with anxiety about the scan. Unnecessary anxiety because if I had just taken care of it when I was so busy busy, I wouldn't have had to spend all that time distracted by my anxiety over it. So if it's not your physical health that's impacted by putting yourself last, it's absolutely your mental health. So Melissa.
Dr. Jeanne (37:02.063)
Mm.
Melissa Ann (37:07.658)
Devon.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:10.09)
I am so grateful for this conversation today. think you shed light on so many things from a diagnosis that not many people would think to ask their doctor to check about, the issues with gaslighting in women and women of color and just as a whole, like as a society, and also just prioritizing yourself. Thank you so much for these awesome messages and.
I know where people can find you because I've had the pleasure being on your podcast before, but if our listeners want to find you and learn more about you and stay connected to you, where can they go about doing that?
Melissa Ann (37:43.774)
Definitely you can find me at two locations on IG. said I have really many aliases, but.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:52.174)
I asked before, which Melissa are you today?
Dr. Jeanne (37:54.256)
Thank
I love that.
Melissa Ann (37:57.862)
MelissaWrightStories on Instagram. That's what the Gen Zs and the millennials say. You guys don't even know what you're talking about. it's MelissaWrightStories. And then also you can find me at girlunderstoretalk.
Dr. Jeanne (38:07.695)
Hahaha
Melissa Ann (38:21.842)
as well, which I will be revamping my podcast just to kind of talk about Some of these not these issues, but yeah issues like, you know trauma and have you back on and talk about Tri triumph like what are we overcoming? as well with
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:36.363)
yes.
I love that. Well, good. I'll see you soon. Yes. thank you so much, Melissa. And we hope all of our listeners go out and prioritize themselves today.
Melissa Ann (38:43.912)
Absolutely. was a pleasure. Thank you for having me.