Dr. Jeanne speaks to Dr. Kelley about her Panic Disorder and her new online offering, The Anxious Calm - a haven for those seeking peaceful coexistence with their anxious wiring.
Dr. Jeanne openly shares about her panic disorder, what its like to live with an anxiety disorder and how the Anxious Calm can help those in need of support.
Takeaways
Hi, I'm Dr. Jean.
Dr. Kelley (00:26.334)
And today we are here to talk about panic disorder and how our very own Dr. Jean has created a beautiful environment and community for any of you who have ever struggled with panic disorder. So let's unpack. Jean, can you tell us about your new venture, The Anxious Comm?
Jeanne (00:46.984)
Yeah, so I've always wanted to do this, but I'd never been ready, I think, because I've been struggling on my own journey and it's a continuing healing journey. But the Actors.com is really a community for those who are not seeking like miracle cures or to never have a panic attack again, but rather to become kind of come into a space of peaceful coexistence with how they are wired.
and to understand how to see the hidden gifts of that, how to maintain that, how to have an equilibrium and how to deal with relapses when they happen. And I'm very insistent that everybody in the community have a great medical team behind them, a therapist and a doctor, but this community is really from a patient to a patient because I think therapy is so important.
Dr. Kelley (01:41.654)
Hmm.
Jeanne (01:46.404)
but that's 50 minutes a week or maybe two sessions of that a week. And then you're alone with your anxiety and you need to find a way to live with that and your loved ones are, are with you dealing with that. So outside of those helpful aids, you still need the practicalities of, okay, well, what do I do now?
Dr. Kelley (01:52.011)
Right.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (02:09.622)
Right, absolutely. And I always found it interesting how you use the term relapse. Can you explain to me what gave you that language? What makes you call a panic attack a relapse? And what does a relapse look like?
Jeanne (02:27.448)
Yeah, so when I was in a much worse space than I am now, the thing that used to set me off the most and that would create a space for me where it was the most difficult to come back from is if I would have panic attack again, because I would feel.
Dr. Kelley (02:46.978)
Mm hmm.
Jeanne (02:49.4)
I'm going to my therapist, I'm taking my medication, I'm doing the meditations, I'm doing the lifestyle, I'm doing everything right. I'm like the A student, how can this be happening to me again? And we would always be going through like days of this panic hangover and the feelings of guilt and the depression that comes with that, of how could you possibly have gone wrong? Why are you here again? Is this ever gonna end? Until
Dr. Kelley (02:58.022)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (03:11.67)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (03:17.848)
We sat down one day and my husband and I thought, okay, let's make a plan of what are we going to do because this is the one thing that seems to set me off the most and we just decided, you know what, from now on, when it happens, we're just going to say it was a bad day. You know, you went from having a bad day every single day to having a bad day every second day to having a bad day once a week to once a month.
Dr. Kelley (03:26.279)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (03:34.311)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Kelley (03:37.664)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (03:43.492)
And that's okay. It's just a bad day. It doesn't mean you failed. It doesn't mean you can't try again. And I found that with many of the kind of self-help allies I went through, the goal was for you to never have a panic attack again. That's just not the way you're wired when this is how you are. So I found the truth in giving it such a brutal tag, actually kind of helpful because now I feel like
Dr. Kelley (03:58.254)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (04:01.387)
Right.
Dr. Kelley (04:08.51)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (04:13.38)
You know what? I had a relapse. That's what I call it. And I'm going to deal with it. And it's been a bad day. I know all the tools I need to do. I know like what systems I need to activate now. I'm not going to get stuck in this moment. And a relapse for me is usually when I I've had a panic attack because then comes the panic hangover. So it's not just the panic attack. And it's usually.
Dr. Kelley (04:38.122)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (04:41.992)
with guilt because when I look back at it and as I learn my triggers better, I can always see where I went wrong. Like, Oh, I shouldn't have done those extra two late nights. I shouldn't have gone on when I was feeling shaky. I shouldn't have, um, and that's that whole kind of system of recognizing where you could have done it differently is what I call the relapse.
Dr. Kelley (04:49.259)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (04:55.165)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Kelley (05:00.283)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (05:04.706)
Mm-hmm. Mm. You know, when I think about approaching your creative perspective of looking at it as a relapse, which I love for so many reasons, because relapses, like you've mentioned, are instances of time. They're not the full story. And I think also, yeah, yeah. And I think also using a term that gives it the,
Jeanne (05:23.14)
Yes.
Dr. Kelley (05:31.286)
The level of importance that it should be given is also wonderful because to people who have never had a panic attack before, they don't know how it can feel. They don't know the fear. And I mean, it can literally, for some people, feel like you are having a heart attack. And this is very, yes, or you're dying. And you're very much experiencing this collision of all these different stress hormones.
Jeanne (05:50.524)
or you're dying.
Dr. Kelley (05:58.626)
overriding your ability to be within the moment. And that's terrifying. And so using something like relapse to describe that, I love that. And I love also how you're saying, not only are we identifying it's a bad day, but by identifying it, what you're doing is helping deal with one of the things I see to be the most problematic with panic disorder. And it's the anticipatory anxiety.
about future attacks.
Jeanne (06:30.896)
Yes, yes. And I'm so glad you said that. You know what gets me down the most about this is I feel like we're in a space where we talk about mental health so much and there's so much education around bipolar and depression and all of these things, but anxiety disorders for me feels like it's still so woefully misunderstood. Like for example, if I were to tell somebody I have panic disorder, their immediate thought is
Dr. Kelley (06:31.847)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (06:55.01)
Hmm.
Jeanne (06:59.54)
Oh, she's somebody who has panic attacks. But no, that's not what it, yes, I have panic attacks. But with that comes, you've had a panic attack, now comes the panic hangover. So you can't get out of bed for two days. You're fatigued, you're depressed, the migraines start hitting you. Your entire system, like you have gut issues because your body has just gone through this incredible trauma.
Dr. Kelley (07:14.947)
Hmm
Dr. Kelley (07:19.277)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (07:27.519)
Right.
Jeanne (07:28.024)
And it's every single day of getting out of bed, trying again and surviving, you have to be, for example, I always have snacks in my purse. I can never get hungry because it's one of my triggers. When I start shaking, I feel like, so there's all these things that you have to have in place. It's like a whole system that you go through in daily life. You have to have lifestyle changes. I have to exercise, I have to meditate. And it's not.
Dr. Kelley (07:36.907)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Kelley (07:40.994)
That's great that you do that.
Dr. Kelley (07:46.454)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (07:52.956)
like, oh, I need to be healthier. So I need to do this. No, I have to do this to manage my triggers. And even if I do this, because of my past trauma, sometimes there are going to be triggers that I don't even know yet are triggers, like somebody could say something or touch me in a certain way, or I could see something on television or read something in a book. And it could trigger one of my trauma memories. And then you're back there again. So it really encompasses your entire
Dr. Kelley (07:57.546)
Right.
Dr. Kelley (08:14.599)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (08:18.205)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (08:23.128)
it's not just that one moment in time where you have a panic attack and then it's also that you described you live in fear of having another attack and you have to manage that so it's all encompassing
Dr. Kelley (08:23.653)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (08:31.118)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Right. You have the emotional anticipation, anticipation that could be happening, like you're saying that can lead to things like more anxiety or depression or shame, or it can have impacts on your self-esteem, on your confidence on the feeling that you belong even within a group of people.
when other people don't understand. But there's the other component, which I think you were really well laying out, is the physical recovery from it as well. It kind of makes me think of epilepsy in a way, where the actual seizure is highly traumatizing to the body, but then there's this descending of all the hormones and systems and your nervous system getting back to baseline. But the thing with panic disorder,
because you're so right, it's not just a panic attack. And I mean, to disclose, I remember having, I've had so few in my life that I don't have panic disorder. I can pinpoint the first time I had a really severe one where I actually thought I was going to die was the night before I graduated from college. I was so anxious. I remember sitting up and grabbing my chest and looking at my, you know, then boyfriend and saying, I...
Jeanne (09:48.83)
I'm so sorry.
Dr. Kelley (09:57.502)
I think I'm having a heart attack. I literally thought that was happening. It was so terrifying, but it was so singular. It was these instances that stand out so much that it doesn't, the anticipation of one is not there. But the anticipation can also impact your body, because if you're bracing for something, that can increase your cortisol, which can be a risk factor. And then also, like you were saying with snacks, oh.
I love that you said that. I love that so much because interestingly, studies and treatment for phobias focus on snacking.
Jeanne (10:36.028)
Yeah.
Really?
Dr. Kelley (10:38.93)
Yes, because a lot of phobias are formed at times where people have low blood sugar.
flying. Think about it. You're rushed, you're grabbing your stuff, you're running off to the airport, you're overstimulated, you forgot to eat, or maybe you just pounded some coffee, and you're not doing the thing to stabilize. One of the first things we feel, think about it, one of the first things we feel is when our blood sugar is off. And you also have very similar symptoms when you're low blood sugar or when you're in a highly anxious state. A lot of those symptoms.
Jeanne (10:49.999)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (11:06.341)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (11:16.01)
are similar, the breath, the tension, the antsy feeling, the shaking. Yes, exactly. So I love that you pinpointed knowing yourself and knowing your environment and setting up your life to be, it's almost like pro, I don't want to say pro panic, but.
Jeanne (11:19.728)
The shaking.
Jeanne (11:38.016)
It's good that you said that because I actually had somebody recently ask me, um, you know, it's great that you're, you're talking about this and all of that, but don't you think you're taking it too far? I mean, don't you think you're like putting a little bit too much into this? And it actually made me stop and feel so bad because then I thought, okay, you know, there are people in the world that are much like sicker than I am and have much more serious diseases. And
I had quite a moment about that, but then afterwards I thought, you know what? No, because I have a family. I have loved ones who live with me. I have a life I would like to live, a quality life. And if that means that there are things that I can do to manage my wiring in a way that still affords me a quality life, I think I'm allowed to speak on that. And I think I'm allowed to embrace that. Because
Dr. Kelley (12:15.95)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (12:20.086)
Right. Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (12:36.756)
you know, like you said, it changes your whole life and that fear of having that attack again. And that's the, you know, it changes your behavior, it changes the person that you are. So for example, I will stop sleeping because many of my panic attacks happen when I'm deeply asleep and I'll be afraid to sleep and sleep, not sleeping and tired is one of my triggers. So it's just like this horrible cycle. Yeah. So you have to be in a space of equilibrium.
Dr. Kelley (12:53.074)
Mmm... Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:00.406)
Cyclical, right.
Jeanne (13:07.016)
And I don't think, I don't know how to explain it to somebody that hasn't experienced it. Some people aren't open to understanding it because they'll just say, you know, it's just stress, like pull yourself up by your bootstraps, do your thing, get into a better space. And I think this was what this person was trying to say as well. Like, don't you think you're making a little bit too much of this? You know, I mean, you have the medication, take the medication and kind of shut up. You know?
Dr. Kelley (13:20.912)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:29.046)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:33.466)
I can say as someone that helps treat people with panic and panic disorders and anxiety and different traumas, that when you focus on the thing that you are struggling with, and I don't mean in a way that's obsessive or catastrophizing, but when you lean into the thing you are struggling with, it reduces its power. If you look at
Jeanne (13:58.097)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (13:59.194)
Act therapy, which I've mentioned before in our episode with Dave, that when you look at something and you name it, you name a spade a spade and you examine, you say, oh, I'm having some of those pre-panic symptoms. What's going on? What's happening? When you lean further into it, there's actually this book called Stop Panic. I have to look up the author. Maybe we can find it for the show notes. That
This author encourages people to try to panic.
Jeanne (14:34.137)
Oh, like, come on, bring your worst.
Dr. Kelley (14:34.478)
to lean into it? Yeah, bring it on, panic. Come on, do your work. Because you're not getting into this power struggle and the anticipation of being overpowered by something, you are taking power by focusing on the thing. So whoever that was that you spoke to, I respectfully disagree with them.
Jeanne (14:56.764)
Thank you so much. Yeah, but also like you have to celebrate the small moments, you know, it's so, like I have a life to live. Am I never gonna stand in an airport queue again? Am I never gonna travel again? Am I never gonna go to a crowded park with my little girl? You know, I need to manage these things and that's what I appreciate about my husband so much. Like, especially when I'm really low after I've had an attack.
Dr. Kelley (15:02.51)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (15:23.648)
And I've, for example, now I'm in the U S close to you. And I had, I would call a relapse. Yes. Just before I came. So I was afraid to travel and it was really, uh, I was really anxious about that. And he will tell me, Oh, you know, when I get here, you're so brave. You're so brave for doing that. And it sounds so silly, but in that moment, it feels so good because you really need to hear that because in your mind, you're thinking
Dr. Kelley (15:27.622)
Yes, we got to see each other yesterday, everyone.
Dr. Kelley (15:42.711)
Mmm.
Jeanne (15:53.448)
Um, Oh my gosh, this happened again. I'm not a loser, but you know, I'm such a mess. I couldn't even do this. And I went through this whole flight being so nervous and I was ill and then have somebody say, you know what, you faced your fear and you did it. Like you've got there. You're okay. And you have to do these things to, to just have, like I say, a quality life.
Dr. Kelley (16:01.314)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (16:11.106)
That's huge.
Dr. Kelley (16:19.466)
And to add just one more thing to this, recognizing that this is not something to feel shame around because our bodies are so intelligent, and they learn what needs to happen in an environment to take care of the whole system. And sometimes things like not sleeping, or things like anxiety, or things like IBS, or things like panic are actually.
our body overworking to compensate for the traumas that we incur or the experiences that we have. So the more you can understand this beautiful orchestra of what your body is doing and understand that, like you said, there's ways to support your unique nervous system and your propensity to have panic be kind of the unfurling. It's like it peaks, it gets to that point, the panic attack comes.
Jeanne (16:50.257)
Mm-hmm.
Jeanne (17:06.309)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Kelley (17:15.446)
You get to examine what made that peak come instead of, I need to feel ashamed and disappointed that I had a relapse. So I wanna thank you so much for being so open and expressive and vulnerable about your experiences because I can only imagine how lucky anyone who goes through your program is going to be. So if you could tell our listeners where to find this fantastic resource, that would be wonderful.
Jeanne (17:43.2)
Thank you. So you can go to docgene.com, docgene, J-E-A-N-N-E.com, and you can find all of the courses there. So it really starts from the beginning, those first, I would say, two weeks after your diagnosis, when you're really the lowest of your low and you're confused and you don't know what's going on and you don't want to believe it's just stress and you're...
figuring out there is something like an anxiety disorder. Like what do you do then? Because I felt looking back, like there is a space between the breaking and recovery. And if you miss that boat, knowing there is this space, you get stuck in that space. And I was stuck in that space for a very long time. Because the tools that you need in that moment are
Dr. Kelley (18:30.274)
Hmm.
Jeanne (18:39.156)
They seem so rudimental and so basic, but that's what you can handle. That is all you can handle at that moment. And then it goes to, okay, now you're going into recovery. How do you maintain it? And very importantly, how do you deal with relapses without feeling that you failed?
Dr. Kelley (18:44.748)
Right.
Dr. Kelley (18:59.962)
Absolutely. And this is an ongoing conversation, everyone. There are so many ways to help cope and work through this. So if you have any further questions or you want to learn more about this from Dr. Jean or myself, feel free to shoot those questions our way. Thank you so much for sharing all of this, Jean. Yes. Bye. Be well, everyone.
Jeanne (19:18.3)
Thank you so much. See you next time.
Jeanne (19:24.687)
Oh, I love that. Be well. That's cool.