Drs. Amelia Kelley and Jeanne tackle the intricate concept of 'super friends' and the unique challenges sensitive individuals face in the realm of friendship.
The conversation delves into the importance of secure attachment, empathy, and the indispensable role of setting boundaries in establishing and maintaining strong connections.
Chapters:
Dr. Jeanne
Hi, I'm Jean. I am the CEO and founder of Figgi Life and Beauty. We specialize in super gentle skincare for sensitive souls like me, and I am an anxious overachiever with panic disorder. So there you have it from the two of us. I am so excited to get into this episode today, but how's your week been going? What's been happening in your life?
Dr. Amelia Kelley
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley
Hmm, like, it's funny whenever I have to think how has my week been going. It's been a pretty busy week. I would say it was interesting because I had a request. This was such an HSP moment. The other day, I had a request from someone in my life, texted me at about 10 and said, I know that. Yes.
Dr. Jeanne
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (02:23.498)
At night? Oh, I'm sleeping. I mean...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:28.133)
Okay, well, we should definitely do an episode about it's about revenge insomnia because I am a revenge insomniac So I was still up but In the text they said I remember you saying after the kids go to bed you have me time So I was wondering if you could chat It's kind of like no me time
Dr. Jeanne (02:49.994)
Yeah, let's just revisit the definition of me time. I think it's kind of in the title. It's.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (02:57.097)
I know. So I had to set a boundary, but it was interesting. I found myself instead of just saying, no, sorry, not able to chat now, I felt the need to recount everything. Well, I had eight sessions, two meetings, this and that, and then I set the boundary. And I'm like, I wonder what it would be like if I didn't feel the need to explain myself and then set the boundary. So I found that to just to be a really interesting moment, socially.
Dr. Jeanne (03:22.614)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (03:26.834)
Yeah, that's so strange. You know, I get home in the evenings and I immediately put my phones in a different room so that I'm not looking at them and getting stressed out by text maybe like this. Because I would totally feel bad and just start chatting with them and giving them all of my energy. I'm so bad at, you know, the fear of conflict whole thing. So that's crazy though. Me time.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:34.061)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:40.44)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (03:52.777)
I know. Yeah. Did you get to have any me time this week? How was your week?
Dr. Jeanne (03:55.886)
Hmm, that is that is strange. Yeah, I've had
Dr. Jeanne (04:02.834)
No, me time was a huge non-existent factor in my week because we've, it's just been one of those weeks, do you ever have those weeks where it just feels like you're drowning? Like you're so overwhelmed and it feels like the more you do and the faster you work, the more behind you get, like it's not like you're getting in front of yourself and it's just like a whole bunch of things because it's school holidays here because of the carnival holiday.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:07.899)
Oh no.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:16.842)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:21.07)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:30.306)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (04:32.098)
And my husband's been traveling, so I've been alone and it's like taking Lily to summer camp every day and getting her back and she doesn't wanna be there and you feel like such a bad mom because you don't wanna put her somewhere she doesn't wanna be. And can you see lights flickering here?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:47.018)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:51.006)
I can, I wonder what that is.
Dr. Jeanne (04:54.894)
I'm wondering what's happening. It's possible that it could be our electricity because we've been having storms. I hope it doesn't make too much. Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:01.813)
I mean, it's not deeply disturbing. Side note, my dog is in here, and I keep hearing him snore every once in a while, so. If you hear that. Great.
Dr. Jeanne (05:10.046)
I can't hear him so it's okay.
Dr. Jeanne (05:14.994)
Yeah, so it's just been an overwhelming week, but I'm super happy to be here. And I'm really glad we get to discuss this. So tell us more about this Super Friends. You read about it? You read an article about it?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:23.521)
Me too.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:27.549)
Yes, and the Atlantic, which is a really great publication that has very interesting articles. I don't even know if it's a new publication because I'm just starting to see all these great articles coming out from it. And it was talking about those people that you know, who just easily, even into adulthood, can just make and keep. The keep part is important. Make and keep friends. And it almost seems effortless.
as opposed to the very genuine, I don't wanna say complaint, but issue conundrum with making friends when you're not in these beautiful bubbles that kids and young adults are given socially with school. And unpacked what are the specific traits or things that make someone a little bit more easily able to make friends.
Dr. Jeanne (06:14.102)
you
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:23.833)
And I think also when I read it, I was thinking about HSPs and how there's this other layer to sensitivity with that when you're so deeply conscientious and you absorb everyone's energy. So I thought this would be a really interesting one to unpack because friendships and relationships are a big part of
Dr. Jeanne (06:37.189)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:43.913)
recovering from trauma or feeling safe or being able to feel empowered in general. So how do you feel like you are on the spectrum? So they said super friend. I almost feel like we need to come up with. So there's super friend. And then what would the middle be? And then what would it be for someone who really struggles? What do you think? So the middle.
Dr. Jeanne (07:06.754)
Well, I think before I answer that, can you just define to me what they meant with super friends? It's just somebody that makes friends easily and loves to have many friends?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:18.281)
essentially someone who doesn't struggle to make and keep someone who easily can relate almost can shape shift mentally in different scenarios someone who can is highly adaptable to different types of people you know it's
Dr. Jeanne (07:36.403)
Okay, yeah, okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:37.353)
which can be really cumbersome as an adult because I listened to one of a Glennon Doyle's podcasts recently about aging and the guests said something interesting that as we age, we become more and more interesting. We become more different from each other.
Dr. Jeanne (07:57.981)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:59.017)
And so likewise, you can imagine how if someone is more closed-minded or less adaptable, it would be more and more difficult the older you get to make friends.
Dr. Jeanne (08:12.49)
Yeah, that's very interesting that you said that because I'm thinking about everything you're saying and I'm definitely on the way extreme other side of the scale. I really struggled to make friends. I love my own company. I prefer it. But for me, it's when I was younger, I don't think I had so much of an issue. It's definitely become worse since I've been older. It's become a lot worse since my panic disorder diagnosis.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:25.102)
Mmm.
Mm-hmm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:41.11)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (08:42.238)
And then of course we immigrated to a new country and it wasn't our native language. We had to learn a third language, which is Portuguese. And we made the permanent move two weeks before the huge global COVID lockdown. So we didn't have an opportunity to make friends and to go out and meet new people.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:51.413)
I don't even know too, good for you.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:03.65)
Oh no.
Dr. Jeanne (09:10.774)
But then again, on the flip side, I'm thinking the move was easy to us because we didn't have a lot holding us back in South Africa. Friends wise, we don't have a lot of friends because we don't make friends easily. And I think I don't make friends easily because I'm not good in social situations. They stress me out. And I don't function well in relationships where the core foundation of the relationship makes me feel safe.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:22.287)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:28.929)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:41.622)
I need to feel safe in a relationship. So I would have had, I can think of so many people that have come into my life and that have been there for a season and then nothing bad happened. We just lost touch and all of that. And they would often tell me, it feels like I never opened up to them. You know, like we had great times together and great conversations, but like, there was always a deeper level to me that they never had access to.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:41.764)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:48.554)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:01.28)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (10:11.106)
So yeah, I'm definitely on the way other end of that scale,
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:15.565)
Yeah.
Yeah, it's funny to call yourself super anything, but I would consider myself a super friend. And I think my friends can attest to that. I would say I have technically always found it, I don't wanna say easy to make friends, but I enjoy it. There's something very exhilarating to me about making friends. I think I had joked with you or someone recently that some people collect stamps,
Some people collect.
Dr. Jeanne (10:49.378)
Sorry, I'm just gonna tell the audience like there's something weird coming going on with my lights and I don't even think it would help if I like stop the recording to make it better so can you please bear with us? Yes, yeah, sorry.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:54.198)
Hahaha
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:00.713)
We'll just pretend you have fireworks because it's carnival. No, that's okay. But as far as friends, you know, some people have different things they love collecting, but for me I joke that I love collecting people. I love the idea of all the different interesting interactions with different friends. I feel very fulfilled when I...
have friends around within good reason, which we've talked about because didn't I also say at 10 o'clock don't talk to me. So on a weeknight, on a weeknight. But yeah, I.
Dr. Jeanne (11:33.555)
Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:39.141)
I think I would consider myself that and I enjoy it and there's something I find fulfilling about it. And I'm hoping through us unpacking this, maybe some of the things that I find exhilarating or I don't wanna say easy, but they come natural. I think that's a good way to put it. They come natural to me. I wonder if after the episode, you might even take one of the things that I do and go try and see what happens.
Dr. Jeanne (11:57.961)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (12:09.11)
Yeah, for sure. I'd be happy to. Well, you said that there were certain things or certain characteristics that you associate with somebody that is like you are, like making friends easy in the super friend category, what are those things? Because obviously you identify with those or did you identify with it and feel like, yeah, I do this, I can see myself in this.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:09.736)
and then come back and tell everyone how it goes.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:15.723)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:22.401)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:28.09)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:32.521)
Absolutely. So I had pulled up for us to chat about secure attachment. So the baseline secure attachment is kind of like the special sauce when it comes to being a super friend. And essentially also super friend, you can be a super friend, but we're talking about the super ability to make friends and keep them.
Dr. Jeanne (12:45.271)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (12:56.597)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:57.581)
Um, so looking at this here, things like ability to empathize, which I find you very empathetic, but I could see if someone is really feeling unsafe or uncentered, it's hard to be in that place of empathy. If you're feeling uncentered, what, what do you think?
Dr. Jeanne (13:18.566)
Yeah, that's true. But usually for me, it's more like people sense this ability I have to be so empathetic and then I'm like their safe space to just unload everything. And they feel so good once they've spent time with me and I am completely drained and an emotional wreck. So it's more that part. Like I don't know how to set.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:28.414)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:34.55)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:42.342)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (13:46.69)
boundaries on my empathy or how to switch it off and not completely personally take it on myself. I can't make that distinction.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:49.035)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:54.774)
Yes.
The word boundaries is the key there. So empathy is interesting because research shows that empathy actually has a negative impact on our immune system and a negative impact, yes. It reduces immune function. It increases heart rate. It increases instances of chronic pain. It can make us feel panicked even. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (14:01.078)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (14:12.115)
Oh, I believe that.
Dr. Jeanne (14:25.426)
I believe it. I've had instances like that where I've had like a particularly difficult, difficult like visit or a conversation or a friend had come over and she shared something difficult and it's just natural to me to do everything that I possibly can to be completely in that moment with her and help as much as I can and it's happened to me where I've had panic attacks as soon as the friend leaves or
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:28.789)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:43.559)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:50.381)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (14:51.666)
I've become physically ill, like I came down with a really bad flu or some kind of digestive issue. I believe that completely.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:58.473)
Wow. Yeah. And so you also said, do something you feel the desire to help in whatever scenario. The interesting thing is that compassion is different. Compassion actually leads us to action and compassion improves our immune function.
Dr. Jeanne (15:08.8)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (15:19.252)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (15:23.592)
Oh wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:24.937)
Right. So let's say, for instance, there's so many conflicts going on in the world right now that we can imagine that we can't touch, that we don't have a direct impact on. And so we can have empathy for those people and the situations and the conflicts occurring. And it can hurt, especially as an HSP. It can hurt to have that empathy because we can envision how painful their experiences are.
Dr. Jeanne (15:45.442)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:51.713)
The compassion piece drives us to feel that we can have an impact. And that doesn't mean that we're going to be able to contact our political figures and, and make a dent in the decisions they're making, but something as simple as compassion meditation. Can have a positive impact on our immune function and allow us to feel like we're doing something.
even if we're not physically going and doing something. And you can see how that's, yeah, that's a tricky thing when you're navigating relationships, friendships, but you said a word that is so fundamental to secure attachment and it's boundaries.
Dr. Jeanne (16:24.334)
Mm-hmm. Okay, that's interesting.
Dr. Jeanne (16:32.584)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (16:41.09)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:42.717)
and having the ability to set boundaries when necessary is actually a big part of being a super friend.
Dr. Jeanne (16:51.79)
How do you do that though? Because I think in a previous episode, you told us about this boundary you had set in your wedding party. And I still say to you, like, I would have never done that because I would be so scared of the conflict, the possible conflict that would invoke. How do you, like for me, just thinking about it makes me anxious, right? Because all of my previous experiences with setting boundaries have ended so miserably and so horribly. But there are many other things that play into that. So...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:58.95)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:03.061)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:16.213)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (17:21.826)
How do you do that without stressing out that you're going to hurt somebody's feelings or they're going to be angry at you? Because obviously it works for you. You have so many friends and you love having many friends.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:29.083)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:33.329)
Mm-hmm. I think and I like that you added you have friends and you enjoy having friends
Dr. Jeanne (17:39.305)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:40.517)
And I think a part of that is the boundaries. If I was just an open vessel all the time, taking in everyone's energy, I couldn't have as many. And I do have, there's levels. You know, there's people that, you know, sometimes people refer to it as like kind of the inner circle, outer circle, and then kind of like the acquaintances, so to speak. Every single friend is not going to know
thing going on in my life. I have to have boundaries when it comes to that. I think, honestly, practice and repetition, I have a very visceral memory of being, I want to say in high school or something, and not liking something my friend was doing and feeling so freaked out and overwhelmed by the idea of confronting her.
but something, whether it was probably a message I had received about boundary setting, a healthy one, a healthy message, that I told myself I have to do this until it's not uncomfortable.
Dr. Jeanne (18:48.742)
Oh, that's an interesting way to look at it. Yeah. So, but that's the key thing though, I think that you're doing differently. I think you're going into these relationships with a good boundary foundation set. And I think that's a big part of why I am not on your side of the scale. And I prefer not to have friends or it's difficult for me to make many friends. I don't, I think I...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:51.373)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:01.133)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:08.953)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:12.353)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (19:17.202)
Most people in my life, most of the relationships that I've built have been built on the wrong principles and the wrong foundations, because that is what I've been taught. I never knew anything different until I started my own self exploration and healing journey. But with many of those relationships, it's now almost kind of too late, you know, because they entered into the social contract with me expecting something from me and expecting me to be a certain way.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:27.193)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (19:44.362)
And just because I'm ready to say boundaries or do it differently does not at all mean that they are willing to accept it. And I've lost a lot of friends because of that. And I've lost a lot of close relationships that were definitely not good for me, but because of that, because I don't enter the relationship, I think, with the best foundation set in terms of boundaries. I enter it as an open vessel, like...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:53.55)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (20:08.074)
Here I am, take everything you need from me. You want more? I'll give you more. Like, is there anything else I can help you with? Okay, cool. I'll make myself sick in order to help you. And, you know, that's like, almost like what you teach your child. You're setting those boundaries of how they are to interact with you and how they see you in this relationship. And then you change the rules of the game. And...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:12.717)
Hehehehe
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:19.625)
Hmm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:28.973)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (20:34.734)
like, ah, no, this is not kind of what I signed up for signed up for. So, you know, and it doesn't end up working out that well, but you set the right foundations.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:39.178)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:47.041)
But that contract can be rewritten.
Dr. Jeanne (20:51.554)
Probably, I would say most people in my life not, but if I were to make new relationships, it could be. It could be.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:58.408)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:02.325)
I think this is a really important thing for people to hear though too, that you know these relationships and so you know whether or not you can rewrite these ones. But there's nothing saying you can't give it a go. Rewrite the contract and see how they respond. You might be surprised. Of the 10 people you're envisioning, one of them may just...
Dr. Jeanne (21:13.774)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:30.009)
know, be there for you and be the friend that you do deserve. And then if you rewrite the contract and set the boundary and other people don't respond the way that they should, then you know, it's kind of like you're playing your cards, right? You put your cards out and you see what the other player is going to do. And you respond the way that they, if you set a boundary and they don't respect it, then that's good information.
Dr. Jeanne (21:56.77)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:56.973)
But I would never want someone to think that just because you went into a relationship with the wrong foundation and I don't even want to say wrong foundation, maybe a shaky foundation, that if you go in with a shaky foundation, you don't have the opportunity to say, well, for example, I'm definitely not a New Year's resolution person, but I love the idea of kind of
Dr. Jeanne (22:19.744)
Ha ha.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:22.713)
Taking stock, you know, what is there anything? I think all year I'm resolving things, but you know, taking stock, what's something I could do a little different? And not this year, but last year, I had re-resolved that I was going to stop being people's source of information all the time, which is funny because it's a big part of, yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (22:44.27)
I can see that about you. I can definitely see that, yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:47.561)
Yeah, and not that I love to do this for my work and for my life's purpose, and it's something I'm very passionate about, but you can see how it would start to affect my friendships. Whereas you're that open vessel of empathy, I sometimes am an open vessel of information. And so I told myself I was going to set this boundary. I received a text from my really good friend mid-January.
Dr. Jeanne (23:06.09)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:14.757)
asking me for another friend's address. That, and we're all connected. They have each other's phone numbers. And so I text her and I said, actually my resolution this year is to not always be the source of information for people. So do you mind texting her directly?
And she responded fine. She said, oh, that's, she said something like, oh, that's funny, I should have a resolution. And she went, she got the address, I'm assuming. I never checked back. I made sure not to check back.
Dr. Jeanne (23:47.886)
That's amazing. Like I would, that would never even register in my mind. If I had made that exact resolution and somebody would have asked me that. It's just, I think how we function differently perhaps. It's not, and I agree with you. It's not to say that when you enter into a relationship you cannot change it. That's not at all what it is. It's just, I come from many difficult and complicated relationships. And
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:53.404)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:09.89)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:15.327)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:16.614)
I've had to learn that many of these heartbreakingly so is better for me to not be a part of it because the thing about the setting the boundaries was many of those were, I call it the clawback, you know, where you set the boundary and you think these people are going to freak out and they don't. And you're like, oh, awesome. That went great. That went awesome.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:23.389)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:32.525)
the claw back.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:40.66)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:45.002)
And then they respect you more, they're nice, they ask about you, they're more in tune with you. And as soon as you're settled and you're comfortable again, you think this relationship's working, they start doing that again. And they start crossing your boundaries and you're gonna have to reset it. And when you reset it then, then it gets like verbally abusive, emotionally abusive, manipulative, and it gets so much worse. So I'm coming from that specific frame of reference.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:59.309)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:07.961)
Hmm. Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:14.217)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (25:14.294)
but I'm also not at all saying that it's impossible to set those boundaries. And it's definitely something that I'm exploring within myself and working on to be able to do that better and to have the courage to do that.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:29.257)
I think that's really not only super honest and authentic, and I love that you shared that, but it's a good example why this isn't always easy for everyone and why it can feel really scary to set boundaries. I mean, I was modeled that it was okay to set boundaries, and so that's why I'm able to set boundaries. In certain ways, there are plenty of ways that I've had to continue
Dr. Jeanne (25:40.003)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:59.131)
to evolve and learn that boundaries are okay and to see that good things come from boundaries. But that was certainly, it's been an evolution. I wasn't always as comfortable doing that. And I definitely think back to a younger.
Dr. Jeanne (26:13.621)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:19.577)
a younger version of myself that wasn't as set in these boundaries. And I think my relationships are better now because of boundaries. And these boundaries don't just have to be, don't do this, don't do that. It can also be showing what you do like.
Dr. Jeanne (26:30.128)
I believe you.
Dr. Jeanne (26:42.253)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:42.461)
and what you do prefer and what you do want. Boundaries can come in the form of positive information also.
Dr. Jeanne (26:52.038)
Yeah, no, it's completely true. I think I'm just, like I said, I am on the journey towards having more courage to do it. Maybe I'm just doing it the wrong way. Like, I'll give you an example, right? I went to, my one friend invited me to go to the beach on a Monday. Monday's all crazy for me. It's like the worst time of week, but she doesn't work on Mondays. So I made the plan, we go.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:02.528)
Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:14.465)
Hmm
Dr. Jeanne (27:19.678)
It's much longer than I preferred to be there. I hate sand in my toes. I hate being in the wind. And we were there from like 10 o'clock the morning to six o'clock at night. And I continued saying, okay, I'm ready to go. I think I want to go. And then there's always a reason not to leave. Then the request came up, let's go to a restaurant. Let's eat a certain type of food. And I said, no, thank you. I don't like that food. I'm not going to enjoy it. Can we please choose something different? And.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:29.069)
Oh my god.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:35.416)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:41.218)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (27:49.378)
kind of just steamrolled over that. Like, no, we're trying this food. You try it and if you don't like it, then that's okay. So we go to the restaurant, I try the food and I was like, I really don't like this. I don't want this. It turned into this frenzy where the owner of the restaurant started coming to us asking why we don't like the food.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:57.581)
Oh, I don't like that. I don't like that at all.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:14.018)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (28:14.05)
Can they buy us something else? They went to a supermarket to buy me a chicken breast and I'm like, please, I will just eat anything. Just give me anything. I'm so sorry I said something. I love this food. This is awesome. Just bring me... They call it, I forget the name now, but it's some kind of, I think it's an octopus. I think it's almost like calamari. Like, but it's not calamari. It's not, it's...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:19.87)
Oh my goodness.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:26.38)
What kind of food was it? I'm so curious.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:37.999)
Oh, Calamaria.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:42.209)
Gotcha. Write like squid or something. Got it.
Dr. Jeanne (28:42.87)
like it, but it's just not for me. And I have so many of these exact types of examples where I try to set the boundary and kind of just steamrolls over me. And then the situation just gets so out of control and so crazy where I feel so bad that I even try to set the, I should have just said yes, like it would have just been so much easier.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:50.658)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:56.491)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:06.333)
No, but I'm so curious about this one because with her, was it a her? I just made the assumption. As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, I can't imagine someone thinking that would be okay to even say or even push you. So when you think back to when you first became friends with this person, were there any little red flags that you now...
Dr. Jeanne (29:11.554)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (29:25.8)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:34.393)
notice in hindsight about that person? Curious.
Dr. Jeanne (29:39.634)
I don't think so, no. I think the red flags would be, like I said, I don't set the relationships with the right foundation and I enter into the wrong types of relationships based on the examples of the relationships I've had in my life. And I've been becoming a lot more aware of that because this is what makes me end up in these situations. Like they're not necessarily the right situations to be entering into in the first place.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:50.163)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:53.296)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:57.952)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:01.322)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:06.839)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (30:07.862)
But it's hard for me to make that initial distinction because I don't come from a very rich background of having good examples of that. Like my message when I grew up was you're the giver. You have to give the advice, you have to listen, you have to support, you have to, like you can't be tired, you can't be angry, you can't be, so I don't have any other frame of reference for this. So I think that.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:12.231)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:27.741)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:31.158)
Right.
Dr. Jeanne (30:34.318)
plays into it, right? And I think you have a lot healthier kind of structure to this where if you enter into these relationships, you're perhaps in a better position to assess whether there even are red flags. Whereas I would be halfway through the relationship and I would go like, you know what? I've just done this again.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:51.127)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:56.289)
Well, I think it's, I do think it's helpful to maybe, I'll use my imagination and ask you about potential red flags because I think for listeners to understand that there are things to look out for when you're forming friendships. And I think that that's why setting a boundary really early on is very important because you need to be able to get that information. And a boundary can also look like emotional individuation.
Dr. Jeanne (31:22.784)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:26.583)
It can look like just if you're talking to a new potential friend and they say they like this kind of music and you don't particularly like this kind of music. Could you experiment in that moment with disagreeing? Could you say right there, you know, I hear you, but it's really not my preference and then watch.
Dr. Jeanne (31:42.784)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:49.973)
see how the person receives your disagreement on such a mundane thing. For me, I feel like that's very telling. If I'm making a friend and they're very, for any reason I notice they're close-minded or they're prejudice, prejudice did come up actually as one of the traits that makes it difficult for someone to become a super friend. I don't find you prejudice. I'm just putting that out there as one of the things, because if you think of
Dr. Jeanne (31:53.142)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (32:16.63)
Hahaha
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:19.737)
Prejudice, how would you say it? Prejudicial, prejudice type thinking. It's a narrow frame of reference and people are so different and unique and special and we're so complex. And the more prejudice someone is with their thought patterns, the more narrow.
their preferences are and the more narrow, the more difficult it is, I think to be kind of a super friend. I had a, my husband's best friend one day, randomly was saying to me that he found it interesting how my friends that I have are so wildly different.
Dr. Jeanne (32:51.158)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:04.673)
from each other. At the foundation, they're all open-minded people. That's kind of like my get-in pass. If you're not an open-minded person, we're not going to have a lot. Yeah, yeah, no passcode, thank you. Yep, mm-hmm, monopoly. But beyond that, that's kind of where it ends. From there, there's just so many different types of people, whether it be different.
Dr. Jeanne (33:05.422)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (33:15.864)
Don't pass go. Don't collect $200.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:31.513)
genders, different ages, different races, different preferences, different jobs. I don't really have one narrow field. I do tend to really gravitate towards neurodiversity though. So people who are a little neuro spicy tend to be a little more interesting to me. But at the foundation, I think finding out whether the person is okay with you having your own opinions is very important in the beginning stages of establishing.
Dr. Jeanne (33:44.45)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (33:56.269)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:00.833)
that friendship foundation that you were talking about.
Dr. Jeanne (34:04.49)
Yeah, and there again, like...
Dr. Jeanne (34:09.91)
For me, you were saying this example, if you ask the question, see how they respond, my default setting would be, oh, how can I make you feel more comfortable? What do you need from me? What can I bring you? What can I do for you? And I will oftentimes kind of skim over these things and say, oh, but maybe they were just having a bad day. We should all give each other a chance. Be kind to one another. Like...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:14.163)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:19.321)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:33.153)
Mm-hmm. Which I love that too. I mean, that's a great trait, a great understanding to have and empathy to have.
Dr. Jeanne (34:40.45)
Yeah, but it can lead you into some difficult situations if you don't have the necessary boundary. But in terms of you also on the friendship scale, do you like having a lot of friends? Do you like to know that I have many friends or obviously I don't think you're like the one person type of
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:46.273)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:03.493)
No, I mean, I really do like having a lot of friends. However, I only have a handful that I pour all my energy into, if that makes sense. So while, you know, I joke that my...
Dr. Jeanne (35:14.91)
Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:21.205)
Child's birthday party might have 60 people at it because we have so many different families and friends that we're connected to There is a point where I'm either really drawn to you and I'm going to pursue you often or I'm drawn enough to you. I think you're great I like having you around but maybe I'm not going to be like really hyper connected and it's because the couple Friends that I have that I'm really connected to
Dr. Jeanne (35:44.881)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:50.534)
I put a lot of energy into. My best friend I met when I was one.
Dr. Jeanne (35:55.366)
Oh wow, okay, that is definitely...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:56.349)
Yeah. And she's an only child. So I think, and I don't have a sister. So I think we kind of became that for each other, but we're also wildly different. Her and I, even though we're both very you actually remind me of her a little bit. Now that I think about it, big compliment, because she's wonderful.
Dr. Jeanne (36:13.484)
Ha ha.
Dr. Jeanne (36:19.138)
Thank you so much. It's for me, I actually kind of get a little bit anxious if I think of many friends, because I think for me, friends, and what I see in a friendship is so, um, you give so much emotionally, like the energy exhaustion from that is so overwhelming for me, it doesn't always have to be that, be like that, but I think it comes back to my foundation of.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:41.429)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (36:48.894)
I like to be in relationships where I feel secure and safe and deeper relationships. So I'm okay with like one or two really, really good friends. Um, but also, yeah, I, I can easily. Like this week it happened to me where I would be getting ready for something. And I would say, Oh, I should probably get out of the house. When's the last time I left the house? Oh, I haven't been out of the house for two weeks.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:52.095)
Of course.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:58.319)
Mm-hmm
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:11.853)
Hmm.
Oh wow.
Dr. Jeanne (37:16.194)
That wouldn't even bother me. I wouldn't even be like depressed or feel like cabin fever. So I'm definitely on the lower amount of range scale.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:22.112)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:28.029)
I think this is an interesting part of the topic though too because the number of friends you have does not define whether or not you're a super friend.
Dr. Jeanne (37:36.87)
Oh really? Oh awesome.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:38.613)
Really, yes, it's because everyone has different needs. So because as we learned in our first episode, I'm a high sensation seeker, I like having a wide swath of friends to choose from depending on my mood and depending on what I'm interested in doing that week or that month or what have you. So someone who's a little bit more introverted feels fulfilled from just a handful of friends.
Dr. Jeanne (37:43.35)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (37:48.502)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (37:54.919)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:08.707)
some research saying that we really can't expand too much of our empathic energy beyond, I want to say the number was like six or seven people, something, some number 10 or under, I remember. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (38:20.646)
Oh, wow. I wonder, yeah, because I also read something about your kids birthday parties, and you should never invite more friends than the age they are, because it's too overwhelming for them. They like you say, you can't expend your energy about and we actually started doing that and my daughter does so much better at her parties. Like, she used to get so overwhelmed and want to be but that makes sense now because you're saying you can't expand your energy to more than you're able to give.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:31.565)
Well, I failed.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:38.753)
That's cute.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (38:47.722)
And it makes sense, if you're five years old, give five friends, if you're six, get six friends. Like that's what you're able to give.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:53.013)
Mm-hmm. That's really cute. And I wonder sometimes that nature nurture piece, because my daughter is definitely an HSP, but she's been like hyper socialized. She's because we're, for instance, Super Bowl, this will probably air after, but Super Bowl is this Sunday in the States and.
Dr. Jeanne (39:07.252)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:15.942)
I was saying, you know, I don't really feel like having a party. So let's just have this one family over. It's now evolved to 20 people.
Dr. Jeanne (39:25.272)
Oh, wow, okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:26.145)
which is a small gathering for us. It's potluck, so I don't have to do as much. We're just ordering pizza. But, you know, so it's funny, I think, about if we weren't so social, would my highly sensitive daughter be as social? She actually, I was so proud. You could have given her the Nobel Peace Prize, and her, like, the class awards last year, she got...
Dr. Jeanne (39:30.05)
Oh
Dr. Jeanne (39:42.996)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:51.849)
two awards. One was most likely to write a book, Be Still My Heart, and the other one was best friend to all.
Dr. Jeanne (39:56.989)
Aww.
Dr. Jeanne (40:00.719)
Oh that's so cute! Oh!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:02.205)
I know I was I was like can I have your awards? So it what I may I wonder you know how much of it is what you become accustomed to and used to also but I
Dr. Jeanne (40:07.529)
Aww that's so cute! Oh I love that!
Dr. Jeanne (40:15.162)
Yeah. Your foundations play a key role in how you address life as an adult and your relationships. I mean, it's just, I wish that more of us knew from an earlier age, like how to set those relationships, especially for your kids. It's so important because you take it through the rest of your life. It's something you always struggle with or do well or navigate bad or well. Or it's, it's very important.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:25.973)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:44.581)
I think it's important to know if like, say you're a parent and you're listening to this and you're thinking, Oh, no, I'm an introvert. Am I not exposing my child? My parents are both introverts. And they had maybe two or four people I remember them being friends with when I was growing up. This is
Dr. Jeanne (40:52.471)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (41:05.132)
Oh wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:05.833)
Yeah, this is not something that I learned through watching. This was something that luckily was not stifled in my personality, if that makes sense.
Dr. Jeanne (41:17.77)
Okay, I understand. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, if you want to know more about Super Friends or if you want us to talk about friends again and have another episode, I would love people to tell us what they want to hear and the questions that maybe came up for them, especially the different sides of the scale. Maybe we have some listeners that lean more towards my scale or more towards your scale, it would be so interesting to have.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:20.713)
Yeah, because extroverted or outgoing, they are not.
Dr. Jeanne (41:47.358)
a good concept of that. But for now, before we close this episode, what are you celebrating today?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:54.109)
Ooh, well, I think in a way I might be celebrating my friendships. I'm celebrating that if I have something deeply meaningful that's happened to me that I've got that person I want to reach out to, or if I want professional advice, I have that other person, and that it's okay to have boundaries, and it's okay to have preferences. So that's my celebration. What about you?
Dr. Jeanne (42:15.705)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (42:20.074)
That's beautiful. I'm celebrating my family today. I think I'm really lucky to have such a good support structure because of, especially with my, with everything that I'm trying to navigate and heal from. And especially that we've spoken about friends because my husband is my best friend and he's been such a support structure for me. And I know that not all of us have that. So I'm going to go ahead and celebrate that.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:24.361)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:38.989)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:43.917)
That's awesome. Love it.
Dr. Jeanne (42:48.082)
Okay, so we'll see you again next time on the sensitivity doctors. And I think we have an episode plan on socializing as an HSB that may fit in well to this one. So be sure to check out our next episodes launching next week. Bye.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:02.947)
Bye!