In this insightful episode, Drs. Amelia Kelley and Jeanne embark on a deep dive into the realms of sensitivity, focusing on Highly Sensitive People (HSPs) and the unique traits that define them.
In this insightful episode, Drs. Amelia Kelley and Jeanne embark on a deep dive into the realms of sensitivity, focusing on Highly Sensitive People (HSPs) and the unique traits that define them. The conversation extends to the distinctions between HSPs and High Sensation Seekers (HSSs), providing checklists to empower listeners in self-identification.
Key Takeaways:
Dr. Jeanne
Hi, I'm Jean. I am an anxious overachiever with panic disorder and the CEO and founder of Figgi Life and Beauty. We specialize in irritant free skincare for sensitives like me, and I have a personal life blog about my journey with anxiety disorder. I'm so happy to be here. How's this week treated you?
Dr. Amelia Kelley
It's been busy. So I'm excited. We're talking about sensitivity today and what that looks like for different people because I think that always plays a role in it.
jeanne
Ha ha.
jeanne
Oh yeah, this week has been a busy one for me too. We have a big school holiday coming up on Friday, which is always a challenge when all the kids are home. But in February, they have this huge festival in Portugal, they call Carnival and like everything closes for it. Like have you ever seen those festivals? I think it's in Brazil with all these feathers and colors and everybody's in the street. It's like, it's that. But yeah, it's...
Dr. Amelia Kelley
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley
What?
Dr. Amelia Kelley
Yeah. Oh, cool.
jeannea huge thing. And we're actually in the parade this year. Yes, we're Barbie. Our whole float is Barbie. And my husband is one of the Kins. Yes, she's on the actual float. So after our recording, I'm actually going to the seamstress who's making everybody's clothes because we all have to look the same. And I think we're like...
Dr. Amelia Kelley
You are, what are you doing?
Dr. Amelia Kelley
Oh, that's so funny.
Oh my gosh, is your daughter in it?
jeanne
30 people in like the one float and there are 12 or 13 floats that go throughout the street so yeah it's a huge thing and we're just trying to not mess it up.
Dr. Amelia Kelley
Wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley
That's really cool. Who is the group that you're in the float with?
jeanne
It's just actually people that live around here that like doing it. So, and then they usually have like one main float that they have some sort of celebrity in. Like a, like a famous singer or like a TV host or something like that. Yeah, it's really, it's a big thing. And then the kids also at school have their own little parade that they walk.
Dr. Amelia Kelley
Oh, that's cool.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:11.114)
Obviously you.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:20.426)
Oh, that's me.
jeanne (04:29.071)
through the streets and dress up as princesses or clowns or whatever they want to dress up as. So that's my big week. And I'm also happy. I don't know. I don't know. I should find I should probably find out why. But I'm also happy we're talking about sensitivity because one of the things that really sensitive people is getting easily overwhelmed.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:34.35)
That's fun.
Why is it in February? Out of curiosity.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:45.338)
Hmm.
jeanne (04:58.607)
crowds, a lot of noise, a lot of stimuli. So yeah, let's get into it. We wanted to do our checklist today, but maybe you can first take us through it and just explain what is a sensitive person. Because for me, I only found out about highly sensitive people in 2017 when I read Elaine Aron's book. But this was...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (04:58.798)
Oh, yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:21.271)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (05:23.263)
post my panic disorder diagnosis. So I didn't even know about this before and it completely changed my life because it made me feel like I was no longer an other, but that I understood myself and where I fit in the world and like, I'm not wrong, you know? So what is sensitivity? What is a highly sensitive person?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:33.698)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (05:45.262)
And so actually I want to say, I think it might have been around the same time that I found out too about high sensitivity. And I found out about it. Do you know the Gaia channel? It used to be Gaiam, now it's Gaia. It's like a yoga brand. So they have a streaming channel and on it, I stumbled upon the documentary that I think Dr. Aaron had produced called Sensitive the Untold Story.
jeanne (05:50.527)
Oh really? Oh awesome.
jeanne (05:58.419)
Yes, yes, yes.
jeanne (06:10.516)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:11.218)
I'm like, oh, I like Alanis Morissette, what's this? And so I clicked on it. And it was one of those probably similar just aha moments. For me, it was, I always thought, gosh, I'm just like really high strung. Like do I have anger issues or something? But I'm also really easygoing and forgiving. So it didn't always match. And after learning about high sensitivity, it helped fill in the gaps being like,
jeanne (06:15.213)
Hahaha!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (06:39.698)
No, it's just being overstimulated. So according to Dr. Aaron's research, which really has been going on for decades now, it is an overactive limbic system. It comes down to a different type of brain. It makes up, HSP's make up about 25% of all animal species. So not just humans. Yes, I mean, they've researched this in bugs, in...
jeanne (07:04.012)
Okay.
Wow.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:07.778)
domesticated animals, a lot of research in horses just because they have so much access to different kind of psychological behaviors with them. And so the theory is that you need sensitive people or animals within a species to help the species at large survive.
So if you think about, if you go, oh, we're not, no, we're an asset, we are an asset. But when my clients find out, I mean, obviously, I try to kind of get the vibe of how they're feeling about it, but I say like, welcome to the club, like congratulations, I'm excited for you that you fall on the spectrum. And it really is a spectrum because you could have someone who scores.
jeanne (07:30.12)
So we're not wrong, we're needed.
jeanne (07:43.213)
Yeah.
jeanne (07:48.894)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (07:55.542)
you know, 100% really, really highly sensitive. And then you can have kind of moderate sensitivity. And then what we talked about in our first episode, and we should unpack at some point, the low sensitives. And it doesn't mean that you're not emotional. I think people misunderstand sensitivity for being emotional. It can lead to stronger emotions, but being highly sensitive and having that more active limbic system basically means that
The world around you has so many more layers and there's so many more things for you to process. And it can lead to these incredible superpowers that we can have, which I can't wait to teach our listeners about all this stuff, because I love everything HSP. But it can also, just like a computer that has too many programs running, it can burn us out, overwhelm us, flood us. And so there's definite upsides. Yes, yes.
jeanne (08:45.337)
Oh yeah.
jeanne (08:50.211)
We really do need to reboot sometimes. Yeah, that's so interesting. And I can't wait for us to get further into this talk. And when you were saying some people score really high, some score in the middle, some score really low, we'll go through the checklist now. But you also said that there are, and I didn't know this, you said there are two spectrums. I think it's the high sensation seeker and the highly sensitive person.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (08:54.254)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:10.414)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (09:19.307)
And when we decided to do the podcast, we said, okay, let's take our quiz again and to see where we fall. And you are a high sensation seeker. And I am absolutely not. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:26.41)
Yes.
Yes, yes, but we're both HSP, so it shows how it can show up differently for different people and different brains.
jeanne (09:37.223)
Yeah, so can you maybe, well, maybe we should start with just the HSP question list and then we can make the distinction between that and a high sensation seeker.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (09:49.026)
For sure. And you know, one thing I didn't mention, and it is important to mention, it is equal among genders. So there's no difference between how many percentages of women versus men are going to be HSPs. It's just, and this is definitely something I hope we unpack at some point, our society doesn't really celebrate sensitivity in men the way that it should, which can lead to a lot of issues, like substance use, anger issues.
jeanne (10:03.502)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (10:13.899)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:18.774)
you know, all of this host of things that can happen when you repress your sensitivity. So just something to consider if you're listening and you happen to be a man, you know.
jeanne (10:19.02)
Yeah.
jeanne (10:26.491)
Yeah, keep that, hold that thought. We're going to discuss that. So when we are going through this little checklist and I'm just wondering, you know, of course, and we will...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (10:30.59)
Yes, hold that thought. Yep.
jeanne (10:43.099)
Maybe need to say that just because you are a highly sensitive person doesn't mean you're necessarily Wired like I am that you necessarily have panic disorder that you necessarily have an anxiety disorder You can be an hsp and not have any of these issues So I think it's pretty important to kind of keep those two separate. What do you think?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:03.006)
I absolutely agree. I think there are two things to consider when it comes to mental health with HSPs. HSPs are emotional sponges and they do absorb their environment dramatically. So if you happen to live in an unsupportive environment or you've been in an unsupportive relationship, you could be more likely to develop mental health issues than a non-HSP because you are absorbing. However, conversely,
jeanne (11:25.827)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (11:30.986)
you can be less likely to develop mental health issues and really flourish if you're in a supportive environment. So that's a big thing. It's not that one causes the other, but it does kind of increase the, I don't know, likelihood, yeah. Right.
jeanne (11:33.898)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (11:47.847)
likelihood, the likelihood of it maybe being so. So I think definitely for me in my specific case, my outcome to the sensitivity checklist for me contributes a lot to how I am also wired in terms of my anxiety and panic disorder because I
I'm 100%. Like there wasn't one answer that I had to know to, but also similarly, there wasn't one answer that I had to think about. It was like a resounding immediate definite. Yes, this is absolutely me. So these things that are listed is you're easily overwhelmed by strong sensory input. So this would be lights, sounds, people talking around you, busy malls, concert events.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:12.526)
Vroom vroom vroom.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:21.05)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (12:38.027)
You seem to be aware of subtleties in any environment. And this is a really hard one for me because I will feel physically ill, literally physically ill if we were to go to a dinner party, for example, with friends and I can pick up that they had been fighting or something isn't right in the conversation, like I will, I will immediately feel like people are stressed or angry or something isn't right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (12:57.272)
Hmm
jeanne (13:06.647)
I will feel uncomfortable and the age old thing will happen where we get in the car and I'll tell my husband, oh my gosh, that was so stressful. There was clearly something wrong and it's like, what are you talking about? This is awesome night. Nothing was wrong. And that just leads into, yes, other people's moods affect me greatly. That whole also walking on eggshells thing.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:08.534)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:15.342)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:22.463)
and
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:30.327)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (13:35.743)
You tend to be very sensitive to pain, find yourself needing to withdraw during busy days, either into bed, a darkened room or any place where you can have privacy and relief. And that's actually kind of our going, um, agreement in the house is when I've had a particularly stressful day, I get 20 minutes to myself before anybody rushes at me because, um, I have a very supportive family. My husband understands the high sensitivity and
Dr. Amelia Kelley (13:52.046)
Thanks for watching!
jeanne (14:05.635)
He understands I absolutely need that to be able to function as a normal human being. And my little girl says, oh, she's on mommy right now. Mommy hasn't had 20 minutes. So it's not the real mommy. Real mommy's coming. Being particularly sensitive to the effects of caffeine, I call myself the energizer bunny, that bunny that I get like that when I have caffeine. Easily overwhelmed by things like...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:12.822)
Yeah. That's so funny.
Hehehehe
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:28.046)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (14:34.563)
bright lights, strong smells, coarse fabrics, sirens. Really that example of feeling that tiny little woollen area of your sock and it frustrates you to a never ending degree. Having a rich and complex inner life, I completely live within my mind. Growing up, I remember people always getting so angry with me.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (14:46.175)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (15:03.603)
and asking me, do you live on planet earth? Are you here? Are you registering? Where are you? What are you? You're not focusing. I was always daydreaming, always so deeply ingrained in the inside. Uncomfortable with loud noises. This I think comes from other aspects of my life, not just high sensitivity, but I have a really big fear of loud noises because of past trauma. So I really don't do well with like a...
Dr. Amelia Kelley (15:29.951)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (15:33.091)
cup falling or pot clanging or any kind of high pitched high noise. Um, deeply moved by arts and music. Yes, I can sit for hours and just cry to a beautiful song or be completely engrossed in being so pumped up and jazzed. Um, nervous system sometimes feels frazzled like you're, you just have to go off by yourself, being conscientious, startling easily.
getting rattled when you do a lot in a short amount of time. And when people are uncomfortable in a physical environment, I tend to know what needs to be done to make it more comfortable, which is true. Yes, like lighting, seating, and et cetera, which can also be counterintuitive to you because you get so involved in trying to make these people comfortable because you yourself feel so uncomfortable because they're uncomfortable. So you end up getting so stressed out.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:25.671)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:29.136)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (16:30.339)
Being annoyed when people try to get you to do too many things at once, and trying hard to avoid making mistakes or forgetting things. Making a point to avoid violent TV shows or movies, which is definitely true for me. Becoming unpleasantly aroused when there's a lot going on. Being hungry is not a good thing for your mood or your concentration. You don't like changes.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (16:35.09)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (16:59.199)
You notice and enjoy delicate, fine sense and tastes and sounds and works of art. Because I think you just see something in it and experience something through it. I think this is where your art background also comes in.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:13.97)
Oh, I'm sure.
jeanne (17:16.811)
Yeah, finding it unpleasant to have a lot going on at once. It's all these overwhelming situations, making it high priority to arrange your life to avoid upsetting or overwhelming situations, being bothered by the sentence to Mili. And when you were a child, you were probably told you're so sensitive, you're always so sensitive, why are you so shy? So yeah, this was really...
my kind of journey through the sensitivity quiz and all of those for me were, if this is a yes, I'm a yes. So I'm so interested to hear if this is then the same for you as a sensation seeker, is that just another level to this?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (17:54.551)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:04.642)
So it's interesting because as I was listening to you talk about each of the questions, and these are from Dr. Erin's quiz that is all based on her empirical research. And I don't know if you had mentioned, but hsperson.com is where you can go and check these off for yourself. And the interesting thing I really try to encourage people to remember, you check it off even if it partly applies to you. So it's very different from other quizzes, whereas like with depression or anxiety,
jeanne (18:12.072)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (18:34.702)
more of the time, this is any of the time. So all of these, all of these resonate for me as well. There's some really interesting science behind why all of these are factors that determine whether someone's an HSP. But if I go to the, and if you go to that website, you can actually also take a test for your child, which is, yeah, because it is genetic.
jeanne (18:36.105)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (18:59.627)
I saw that and I did that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:05.806)
This is a genetic state trait, not a diagnosis. It's kind of like a trait like having brown eyes. So going through the questions, it's a shorter quiz, but for the high sensation seeker. So the first question, if it were safe, I would like to take, I'm gonna be exposing. If it were safe, I would like to take a drug that would cause me to have strange new experiences. Okay, I have to say I said no to that one.
jeanne (19:07.488)
Yeah.
jeanne (19:13.842)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (19:32.514)
And I'm not just saying that to sound professional. Legal disclaimer. No, I actually said no to that one because of HSPs tend to be very sensitive to medication. And I am always someone who has been, although I do need high levels of it. So I think in a way, that's the high sensation seeking. Like if I get dental, a dental procedure, I need extra Novocaine and it's because of being sensitive to pain.
jeanne (19:33.902)
For legal disclaimer reasons.
jeanne (19:43.875)
Yeah.
jeanne (19:56.803)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (20:01.291)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:01.806)
Or like, I'm a three ibuprofen popper, not a two, even though you're supposed to take two. I know that's, you know, no medical doctors reach out to me on that one. So the next one, I can become almost painfully bored in some conversations. Okay. And it's funny to hear a therapist say this. I feel this so hard when this pertains to a conversation that's all small talk.
jeanne (20:05.775)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (20:11.829)
Hahaha!
jeanne (20:27.548)
Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:28.606)
Right, so I'm okay with a little small talk to kind of get the vibe going and get the energy of the other person. But I once had someone tell me about this networking event and I said, oh, I hate networking. I've never actually been to a networking event. And they were shocked because I'm super outgoing and I love having people around. And I mean, I run a pretty large private practice.
jeanne (20:33.277)
Yeah.
jeanne (20:51.531)
Yeah, and you feel, I think you're a super social person.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (20:55.034)
I'm naturally very social. However, I like to talk about real things.
jeanne (20:56.878)
Yeah.
jeanne (21:02.727)
Ah, things that matter. You don't like to just talk about frivolity. Thank you, thank you, thank you.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:04.066)
Things that.
Frivolity, yeah, frivolous things. Yeah. Yeah, it's, and it's not that I don't, and let me put it this way, if it matters to you, I can be interested. If I can feel because I'm an HSP, if I can feel that you're interested in something, I can become interested. But I have a hard time with, I call them like vanilla conversations where it's, I don't know, like the weather or, yeah, or like you're...
jeanne (21:20.362)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (21:30.055)
Yeah, I just zone out of them. Like I just forget them completely. I just go to a different world. Like.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (21:37.658)
Or gossip annoys me. Like if you're going to tell me about someone else's experience, I become less interested because it has one layer away. I can't feel what this other person you're talking about feels. So I become more uninterested. So that one, I feel that in that way. The next question, I would rather go to a new place. Oh, this is so me. I would rather go to a new place I may not like than go back again to a place I know I like.
jeanne (21:40.779)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (21:55.043)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (22:07.984)
Oh no.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:10.146)
I do have a couple of places I love that I like to go to. I am obsessed with the idea of, and I think this is why the area I live in is so appealing to me, the Rale Hill area, because there's no shortage of restaurants and festivals and museums and just like new, it's all popping up. I get like a rush of, almost like a needed rush of dopamine when I go somewhere new. Yeah. Yes.
jeanne (22:35.047)
Okay, awesome. That's interesting. I love traveling and I love exploring new things, but I can do that if I've planned that and I've settled down and I'm thinking, okay, I want to do this, I want to see something new, but I don't want to do that every weekend.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (22:39.75)
Right?
jeanne (22:56.203)
And I don't want to do that every month. I much rather prefer to stay somewhere where I know the surroundings around me. I know what to expect. And I always go to exactly the same store. I go to the same, to the same like little bus stop. I go to the same coffee shop. But for you, this is not true. You, you love exploring and you love trying different things, seeing different things.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:05.527)
I'm out.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:19.766)
I do to a point, this is where the HSP part comes in. So I love novelty if I've got these bumpers of security around it. So I sometimes say to people being an HSP, HSS is like living life with breaks gas, breaks gas. Whereas...
jeanne (23:37.443)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (23:38.262)
being an HSP, I think is almost like an electric car where you're kind of, as long as you have a little bit on the brake, you're going. I'm sorry, a little bit on the gas, you're going. You're like, I'm good. I'm going. I'm going. Don't make me press the brake too hard. Don't make me press the gas too hard. I had my car. What was that?
jeanne (23:48.49)
Yeah.
jeanne (23:53.255)
Yeah, you're the captain slow. No, I'm saying you're the captain slow as an HSB from what the grand tour or top gear.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:01.215)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:05.23)
So, for instance, if I'm going somewhere completely, completely new, I do feel a little anticipatory anxiety. But if it's like a new restaurant, I'm at home, I'm somewhere safe, I know, I'm familiar, I kind of go into my hibernation mode before I throw get-togethers a lot. Anyone who knows me, I love throwing get-togethers. But I have this weird hibernation period, the hour or two before.
jeanne (24:22.717)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:32.878)
where I have to be completely alone. I have to either be like laying down and close my eyes or taking a bath or something to decompress. And then I get really into it and I'm getting all the dopamine and I'm super excited. And then at the end I crash. So it's kind of like this, this seesaw.
jeanne (24:33.291)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (24:48.393)
Yeah.
Like a roller coaster.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (24:53.17)
Yes, and that's why being HSS, HSP, you have to get really good at not too much or not too little.
jeanne (25:01.347)
How do you do that though? Because it feels like the highs would be so cool for you and the lows would be so bad. So like, don't you end up in a state where you're constantly kind of trying to chase the high sensory experiences in order to avoid the kind of dip.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (25:19.35)
I think within, I think the more you learn about yourself, you learn just how much you need. Like I know if I don't have some sort of plan to see a friend within a week, I can feel kind of depressive. And it's not because I think all my friends are going to abandon me. It's because I get something really meaningful out of those interactions.
but I don't need it all the time. It's weird, like do not show up at my door unannounced. That is gonna throw me off. But I definitely wanna make sure that we have that time together. I know I'm gonna get to be with you.
jeanne (25:51.797)
Yeah.
jeanne (26:00.115)
Mm-hmm. You want to feel the quality in that moment? Like you want to really be in it? Okay?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:03.637)
Yes.
Right. And so let's see. I would like to try a sport that creates physical thrill, like skiing, rock climbing, or surfing. This again is so funny. So I played rugby. I don't know. Yeah.
jeanne (26:18.547)
really South African, so we're huge, huge on rugby.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:23.658)
Yeah, I played in undergrad, grad school. I actually played over when I studied abroad. So I've played in Spain, I've played in England. I actually moved here to play for the city of Raleigh.
jeanne (26:37.243)
Oh wow, that's amazing, but that is definitely, I would classify that as a thrill-seeking sport because that is a rough game.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:45.362)
It is, but here's the funny thing again with this HSS-HSP. While I loved it, can you hear that train by the way?
jeanne (26:52.865)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (26:55.842)
So we have a train that comes by twice a day. And it happens to be coming by now. So we could.
jeanne (27:03.167)
It's okay. We can edit this like big things is fine to cut out. It's those small, the small things that.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:05.634)
Okay. Yeah, we'll wait a second.
Yeah, like, yeah, like a dog scratching at something. It's already gone. Yeah. Okay. Um, it'll come back at like four 30. So as far as, um, oh yeah, trying the sport. So the funny thing is that being both, I loved it and sought it out because it was different and thrilling and I was always terrified before every game that I was going to be injured.
jeanne (27:15.619)
Cool.
jeanne (27:38.576)
Oh, that's an interesting conundrum.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (27:40.574)
And that breaks gas. I would get so anxious, literally anxious before a game. My stomach tumbling and like, oh gosh, okay, how's this gonna go? But as soon as the whistle blew, I was in.
jeanne (27:50.718)
Yeah.
jeanne (27:55.035)
Okay, and you felt that kind of rush of adrenaline and like, yeah, I want to do this. I want to be here. This is all me right now. Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:00.298)
Yes. Yeah, yeah. So there's that. I get restless if I stay home for long. Absolutely. But again, I need the time at home. So it's this kind of seesaw effect. That is definitely the case. I don't like waiting with nothing to do. Yeah, I struggle with that also. And I always have to work on not, you know, it's too easy to kind of pick up your phone
jeanne (28:14.09)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (28:30.326)
So in those moments, I do try to work on, you know, kind of being mindful, being in the moment. I wonder sometimes if I don't like being early because I don't like waiting. I usually like showing up right when something's going to start. I try to show up right when something's going to start. And next one, okay, I rarely watch a movie more than once. Yeah, that's the case too, for sure.
jeanne (28:30.797)
Yeah.
jeanne (28:44.28)
Ooh, interesting. Yeah.
jeanne (28:58.059)
Really? Oh no, I have ones that I've watched a million times over. Oh no, now as an adult, yes.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:02.026)
When I was a kid, I did that. I definitely had mixed feelings. Now? No, I get really sad when I've watched a show that I love. I'm like, it's over. I can't watch it again. I'm like... Aside from Friends, I will go back to that because it's kind of like this safe space for me or something. That... Yeah. I enjoy The Unfamiliar. I think I've kind of unpacked that already.
jeanne (29:23.099)
Yeah, good memories and all of that.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:30.73)
If I see something unusual, I will go out of my way to check it out. Yes. Okay, so last fall, we were camping as a family. We had just gotten our first, I guess it's called a camper, not an RV, because you pull it. And we're sitting there by the fire, the kids are asleep. And my husband and I started to hear screaming, like a child. I got right up.
jeanne (29:54.358)
Oh.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (29:57.31)
I don't know what I grabbed. I think I grabbed something. Like I was going to defend, who knows? Like, why was I, I'm five foot one. What was I thinking? And I went marching through that campground in the dark towards the sound. Like I had to go check it out. And of course my husband's like chasing with me because he wasn't gonna let me just go off by myself. Luckily, I'm still sitting here today because it was the owners of the campground where we're watching a Halloween movie.
jeanne (30:06.256)
Ha ha ha!
jeanne (30:19.036)
My goodness.
jeanne (30:28.12)
Oh my goodness.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:29.63)
I'm like this big speaker, but I went to it. Or yeah, like it didn't even faze me. I'm like, yes, I have to go see what's going on. So if you ever watch a movie and you're like, why is the person in the scary movie, which again, I don't really love scary movies either for the same reasons you probably don't.
jeanne (30:34.526)
Oh wow.
jeanne (30:48.987)
Yeah, running up the stairs instead of out the door, that's you.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (30:53.671)
That would be me. And it's not even a conscious thing. It's like, I just have to go figure out what this is. It's a real thing, people. Like, if you're...
jeanne (31:01.119)
No, no, no. I am the complete opposite. Like, I'm going to tell you this story because I'm going to trust that the audience would understand it's coming from a good space and not judge me as the bad mom that I probably am. But I am terrified of snakes. Like, it is the bane of my existence. And we were lying in bed watching the Flintstones. I was with my little girl and I got up.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:07.989)
Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:12.346)
No, you're not.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:18.197)
Okay.
jeanne (31:25.571)
to take a bathroom break and as I walked into my bathroom and I looked down there was this big black snake by my feet. And I just completely screamed and ran away and my daughter started screaming because she can't get out of the bathroom, out of the room without crossing past the bathroom. I just left her there. I was like, okay, every man for himself, every girl for herself. And she was like crying.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (31:45.854)
Oh, send for yourself.
jeanne (31:52.807)
I'm screaming for my husband to come and help us. And after the whole ordeal was over, I'm still on the couch screaming terrified. She's helping my husband like evacuate the snake. And afterwards she's like, mommy, do you think if something like that happens again, you'll come fetch me first before you leave? Yeah, so I'm like completely the opposite. Yes, I almost stepped on it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:02.432)
Oh my god.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:08.969)
Oh...
poor girl. I get it though. I get it. And so that's the thing. You saw that it was a snake, right? Like you saw it in front of you. I would have responded the same way. That's the weird thing because I would have seen it. I would have known what it was. I would have had that startle response and I probably would have high tailed out of there too. So it looks like bravery, but it's more like this weird curiosity. Like you can't kill it until you go see it.
jeanne (32:31.855)
I'm sorry.
jeanne (32:40.103)
Yeah, you can't not do it. You just have to. Yeah. No, I'm definitely not that one.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (32:42.942)
Yes, yes. Let's see. So, I get bored spending time with the same people every day. Okay, I hate to admit this one. I think I can have that experience if I'm, I like novelty, remember? So I like being with all different people. I like having a variety of things.
jeanne (33:02.635)
Mm-hmm.
How do you do that in your relationship with your husband then? Is it just that you guys have this kind of frequency that you're always challenging each other and there's always something new?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:18.146)
Yes, and we're very social. So we integrate other people into our life quite often. Like I was saying, at least on a weekly basis, we're seeing friends or, yeah.
jeanne (33:20.929)
Ah.
jeanne (33:25.078)
Mm.
jeanne (33:30.375)
Really? Like, I'm a complete hermit. Like, I isolate. I will, unless my husband forces me to go somewhere, I'll never leave. Like, but he's also introverted in his way. Like, we don't see friends very often. We don't, we're complete home bodies. And yeah, so weird how we're this complete opposite.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:38.431)
Really?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:42.135)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (33:51.938)
But still both HSPs. I know it's funny, I run this mental health meetup called Uncorked Conversations, it's so fun. And it was last night, we were talking about imposter syndrome, all that, inspired by your episode. And one of the girls in the, one of the women in the group knows me personally. And she brought up, you know, something about, oh, I really admire your friendship with your husband and how you guys are always going off and doing all these new things and all of that. And...
jeanne (34:04.757)
Hehehe
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:21.374)
In my mind, I'm like, half of it is our friendship and half of it is that I'm a high sensation seeker and I'm always wanting to go try new things. But I try to incorporate that with him. So keeping him part of it keeps him interesting to me. We have more to talk about, more to... And this relates to also the ADHD brain.
jeanne (34:33.219)
Yeah.
jeanne (34:39.991)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (34:46.499)
Okay. Do you have ADHD?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:47.403)
if you think about it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (34:51.907)
It's so funny you ask. I have taken so many tests, and I don't meet criteria in some ways, and I do in others. It's so hard to know. This is why unpacking neurodiversity is so important to me because it's not such clean cut boxes like we want it to be.
jeanne (34:54.019)
Ha ha ha!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:13.61)
There are things about ADHD, the high sensation seeking and the dopamine driven aspects of ADHD that I classify as, but there's a lot of the, you know, executive functioning pieces that I don't. So I would say it's up for debate.
jeanne (35:27.178)
Okay.
jeanne (35:32.969)
It's in the air.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (35:34.57)
It's in the air and the reason I say that is because a lot of the holistic measures that one should use to manage ADHD, I religiously use also like exercising every single day, being kind of hyper organized with lists and all these things. So I don't know if like my Virgo power helps me a little. You know? Yeah, what are you? What?
jeanne (35:52.236)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (35:56.207)
Oh, you're a Virgo? A Virgo. On the 29th of August. 29 August. No, you're joking. Yes. What year were you born? Oh, 85.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:02.794)
Oh my gosh. Wait, when is yours?
That's my birthday. The way August 29th, you said, right? Yeah, oh my gosh, that's totally my birthday.
81. Oh my gosh, that's so crazy.
jeanne (36:23.489)
That is so weird.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:24.914)
Oh my gosh, that's hilarious. See everyone here, we're learning.
jeanne (36:29.587)
That is so weird too. And just thinking of how we connected and got together and now we're both, and born on the same day, we're both HSBS. That is so funny. So this ADHD that you were mentioning, is that something that shows up on the checklist for a high sensation seeker?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:38.19)
Crazy. Oh my gosh, that's so funny.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (36:50.278)
No, but with a lot of these things, there's a lot of overlap, if you think about it. I mean, thinking about like, I enjoy the unfamiliar. If you have someone who has a hyperactivity piece of ADHD, they also could enjoy the unfamiliar. Right? But like you said, there's things about PTSD that also looks like some of the HSP traits.
jeanne (36:54.88)
Yeah.
jeanne (37:03.576)
Mm-hmm.
Mmm.
jeanne (37:15.371)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:16.862)
And I think when we get too overly invested in compartmentalizing different traits and diagnoses, we kind of lose the rhythm that we're just humans and humans are so diverse and so organic. We're just too organic to box up.
jeanne (37:27.212)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (37:34.641)
Yeah, I have something I want to add to this, but I first want to know if we're finished with the list. Did you do the last question on the high sensation?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (37:40.846)
No, almost. So let's see. My friends say it is hard to predict what I will want to do. I didn't say yes to that one because I'm so communicative that I like to explore new areas. We've covered that. That's a definite yes. I avoid having a daily routine. This one I also said no to because I do have a daily routine, but this is the odd piece. I have a routine, but I need
jeanne (37:55.939)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (38:01.696)
Okay.
jeanne (38:10.468)
But do you have a routine because like you just explained with the ADHD you feel you need it to function well? Or do you have a routine because you cannot function without it? Like do you do it because you know it's something you have to do or If you don't have it you're lost
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:27.146)
I think this is where the HSP part really comes out for me. I think I feel more centered and balanced, kind of safer. I don't know if that's a dramatic word to use, but definitely more centered and balanced when I have a routine. But my routine, like I was saying, has to have flexibility. Like I'm not, I almost dread if I know ahead of time that I know exactly.
jeanne (38:34.475)
Nah, okay.
jeanne (38:46.517)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (38:52.526)
what workout I'm going to do and who I'm going to meet up with. I'm not one of those who likes to have a workout buddy. I like to wake up and be like, okay, this is my timeframe where I normally routine-wise workout. What do I feel like doing today? So there's a little bit of organic nature within the routine. Let's see. I am drawn to art that gives me an intense experience. I would agree with that. I mean...
jeanne (38:58.653)
Yeah.
jeanne (39:06.276)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (39:18.435)
Yeah, I can see that in you for sure. Because even when we were doing our branding and looking for it, like, you have a very keen eye on how to put things together and what to marry together and what concepts you want to see. So I can definitely see that in you. Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:24.674)
Thank you.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (39:37.998)
Mm-hmm. I like substances that make me feel high. I don't, again, well, so I drink, you're talking about caffeine, I drink black tea. I can't even do coffee or I can't sleep the night before. Again, because I'm sensitive, I would say no on that one. I prefer friends who are unpredictable. I value loyalty and reliability. However,
jeanne (39:44.269)
Does coffee count?
jeanne (39:52.616)
Yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:04.458)
I think I've mentioned before that I do gravitate towards neurodiverse people because they are interesting and you kind of never know what you're going to get. So I would agree with that. I look forward to being in a place that is new and strange to me. I've said yes to that. Maybe not so strange, but I don't like fun houses because then everyone's jumping out at you. I hate that. Or haunted houses because of the scare. I don't like scare jumps. No, no.
jeanne (40:08.751)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (40:29.058)
Yeah. You don't like being scared, yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (40:34.382)
To me, if I am spending the money to travel, the more foreign the country, the better. Yes, totally. I would like to be an explorer. I think I actually have that in my little byline on Instagram or something. And then the last one, I enjoy it when someone makes an unexpected sexual joke or comment that starts everyone laughing a little nervously. No.
jeanne (40:40.193)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (40:46.4)
Yeah, I think.
jeanne (41:00.303)
I'm sorry.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:03.01)
So again, you only have to score 11 or more, which I do. There are some things about like substances and humor that I'm a little different on, but.
jeanne (41:05.489)
I'm sorry.
jeanne (41:14.055)
Yeah, but most of it you tend to meet. I think you can find this list also on the website, right? So you guys can go to Elaine Aaron's website, but I will link it in the episode description and go and fill out your list. But also if you're into it, then get the book for sure, because it really changed my life, but I think one of the things that stood out for me on understanding what a highly sensitive person is and what it looks like and
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:18.382)
bright.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (41:42.923)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (41:43.415)
Um, what it means is just like that realization I had of, I am not wrong. And the world isn't necessarily, you know, a place where I have to fit into this. Little box. And I don't know if this was your experience, but a lot of my experience, of course, it is intermingled with past traumas and all of that, but was.
geared to me having to understand, although I didn't understand that I am this highly sensitive person and hiding it, because I would often be told, why are you crying again? You are so sensitive. You take things so personally. We can't tell you anything because you will be so stressed about that. And this is the narrative I went through most of my life with.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:20.8)
Hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:38.21)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (42:38.795)
And then getting to a point where you can read this and understand like, Hey, maybe I'm just wired a little differently. And if I understand this a little better, I can probably handle it a little better.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:46.806)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (42:53.93)
And you know, when you use the key terms, you know, you're so sensitive. I think that's one of the things we think about as far as sensitivity shaming. But there's a couple other terms that I have experienced that I think are also important to remember. Like I remember once being told you'll never be satisfied.
jeanne (43:04.338)
Mmm.
jeanne (43:17.723)
Oh wow, that's a rough one. But still, like words matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:19.182)
Well, it was my ex-boyfriend, so... But he wasn't saying it about our relationship. And it was kind of more so about the fact that I was like trying new things and all this. And at the time, you know, it burned. But now I look back and I'm thinking, no, that's my high sensation seeker. That's what makes that's what drives me and excites me. That's a good thing. Or being told that you're too emotional.
jeanne (43:42.727)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (43:46.628)
Oh yeah.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (43:47.154)
Right. That's another one. A lot to handle. Oh, if someone tells you, this is an interesting one, if someone high maintenance, honestly, if someone tells you, I think you're neurotic or you're controlling, these can also be reflections on the conscientiousness that someone who is an HSP has or the fact that
jeanne (43:52.195)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (43:57.707)
High maintenance is also one that I've heard a lot.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:14.574)
you know how you want a space to be because you want people to be comfortable.
jeanne (44:20.095)
And then it comes in like you can't always make everybody happy. Not everybody's going to like you. Yes.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:24.798)
Right, just relax. So these are all other, you know, kind of, I say like more sensitivity shaming type terms that might not seem quite as obvious as you're too sensitive.
jeanne (44:39.935)
Yeah, and you know what was the hard thing for me? I think this pushed me into a space where I was trying to not be that way, because the world was telling me the way that I was wrong. So for example, it would upset me a lot and it would be difficult for me to be overstimulated, like too many noises, sounds, people, crowds, but I would force myself into these positions because this is what normal people do and they don't get freaked out.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (44:47.698)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:06.466)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (45:08.599)
by it, they don't need to retreat for a day and be in a calm, silent space. So obviously in order to fit into what society deems to be normal, I need to be able to do this too. And that made it worse because I can't do it. Like I just, it makes, it completely overwhelms me. It completely, you know, shifts my axis. It takes me so long to get back to a normal.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:22.01)
Right.
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:33.864)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (45:36.319)
Combine that with my panic disorder. It's just like complete, you know, crashing of all systems.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:38.319)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (45:43.03)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, what you're talking about that we definitely, I want to dig into deeper through our episodes is the masking that can happen for neurodiverse folks and the masking of how you're really feeling or what you're really experiencing for HSPs can be really significant.
jeanne (45:51.663)
Mm.
jeanne (46:00.591)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. And I think the beautiful thing that we forget about HSPs is yeah, okay. So some of these things are challenging, but we gain so much from it. Because if I just look back at my life, the past couple of years, how intuitive I can be in terms of making business decisions or, um, things that I see in people and recognize that other people don't necessarily see because it's just such
Dr. Amelia Kelley (46:14.538)
Mm-hmm.
jeanne (46:32.787)
small nuances and you do that because you're operating at this kind of frequency. You see things and experience things differently than other people do and it can be in your favor.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (46:41.122)
Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (46:49.774)
Absolutely. And it's interesting because if you think about, well, you were saying it was an aha moment, what piece of it was an aha for you, mostly? Like what part of your personality did you have hindsight on that you're thinking, oh, wow, that's probably related to that?
jeanne (46:51.651)
Yeah.
jeanne (47:02.775)
when I found out about the HSP.
jeanne (47:12.423)
I think the 100% and maybe this is also because of how I grew up, is that environmental thing where you feel other people's emotions and you get upset about it to such a degree that you literally almost feel physically ill from it and understanding that, you know, that may not necessarily be related to a narrative like you can't keep everybody happy, not everybody's gonna like you.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (47:20.926)
Yeah. Right.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (47:29.143)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (47:40.718)
Mm-hmm. Mm-mm.
jeanne (47:40.983)
because that's not really what it's about. It's more about you're trying to understand where are these feelings and these emotions and this atmosphere in the room coming from because it's upsetting something in me, deeply upsetting something in me and triggering something in me. That was my biggest like.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (48:00.846)
I love how you put that because it doesn't necessarily have to reflect on whether you're confident or whether you have, you know, kind of a good sense of self. It's not like you're losing yourself in other people's feelings and emotions. It's just this energetic experience that is in, there's not an on-off switch to it. It actually makes me think of a decision I had made when I got married.
jeanne (48:24.783)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (48:30.522)
I had a very big wedding party, as you can imagine, because I'm a high sensation seeker and I have a lot of friends. And I say that proudly. I joke that some people collect, you know, symbols or wine or stamps, and I collect friends. And I had this one really amazing friend that I love dearly and we're still very good friends. And I was in her wedding and... Or was it? I'm trying to think of the other way around. Maybe it was after. Maybe we were still good enough friends. I was in her wedding after my wedding. But I came to her.
jeanne (48:34.159)
I'm sorry.
jeanne (48:42.933)
Oh awesome.
jeanne (48:55.791)
Thank you.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (49:00.29)
before the wedding and I said, I love you so dearly and I really want you in my wedding party but I can't have you in my wedding party. Because this particular friend, she's the very extreme introvert version of HSP and we will talk, let's unpack some episode. There are differences with introverts, HSPs, all of that. But.
jeanne (49:24.183)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (49:26.994)
I said, you know, her, she would tend at that time in her life to have days where she would just kind of get really reclusive and quiet and off to herself. And I always felt the need to go help her and like make sure she was okay and pull her into the group. And that was kind of like our dynamic. And I realized that, yes, and so I realized if that happened on my wedding day, that could have been really bad.
jeanne (49:39.503)
Okay.
jeanne (49:45.227)
You are a caregiver. Yeah.
jeanne (49:53.632)
Mm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (49:54.418)
And so I said, I love you so much, but I can't run the risk of me being kind of over concerned about how you're doing.
jeanne (50:04.827)
Wow, but how like were you nervous to do that?
Dr. Amelia Kelley (50:09.526)
I mean, I think anyone who's friends with me usually knows that I'm just authentic from the jump. Like I am going to set that culture between you and I that we're always, I invite you to be open with me, I'm open with you, always with a place of curiosity and love, like I'm not trying to hurt you. I don't remember being super nervous about that one. I think because I thought she would get it. We had enough conversations.
jeanne (50:17.494)
Yeah.
jeanne (50:29.818)
Mm.
jeanne (50:37.611)
And she was, she was okay with it.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (50:39.05)
Yeah, we're still amazing friends today. And I do think I was in her wedding after my wedding. I'm trying to, I think she got married after, yes, she definitely got married after me and I was in her wedding.
jeanne (50:46.057)
Oh wow.
jeanne (50:50.967)
That's what I was saying to you. I have such a fear of conflict. I would never do that. I would like suffer through the day. I would do everything to make her feel comfortable. Like I was saying, it's part of my journey. I'm deeply working on at the moment, but that's why I was asking because I have so much respect for you for doing that. As you were telling me that I could feel how anxious I was getting, just thinking of maybe doing something like that.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (50:59.724)
Mmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:13.506)
Hehehe
Dr. Amelia Kelley (51:17.186)
Mm-hmm. And I think it depends on the relationship. If I feel really safe with someone, I feel I felt very safe with her, so I felt less anxious. But there are certainly people I don't feel as connected to that if I have to confront them, it's a little bit more anxiety provoking. But that's another thing I definitely would love for us to unpack is conflict resolution, because that's a big one, especially for sensitive people.
jeanne (51:38.175)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. That is a huge one. So I would encourage our audience to go and check out this website for Dr. Elaine Aaron. And remember, this is the sensitivity doctors where we discuss all things sensitive. So this is definitely not our last conversation on highly sensitive people and just cannot unpack it all in 40 minutes.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:04.257)
Mm-mm.
jeanne (52:04.815)
So before we say goodbye for the week, what are you celebrating this week? And we encourage our audience to pick one thing, no matter how small, that you may also be celebrating.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:15.703)
I am celebrating that I'm gonna get to do a, remember I was saying I love to hang out with people, like a family girls night with a couple family members in the area on Friday. And we have never done this before. So this is kind of a new thing with this part of my husband's family. So I'm looking forward to it. Yeah. So I'm celebrating that. Yeah, I will. How about you?
jeanne (52:21.635)
Yeah.
jeanne (52:34.751)
Oh, awesome. Oh, report back. Report back on how that went. I'm celebrating today that we have sunshine. I'm from South Africa. These European winters, out sunshine, it really gets to us. It's super freezing and cold, but the sun is shining. And it just feels like my mood is so much better. And it's so nice to look outside and see the sun glistening from the trees. So I'm celebrating that today.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:44.446)
Yay!
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:51.208)
Mm-hmm.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (52:54.855)
Awesome.
Dr. Amelia Kelley (53:02.843)
Awesome.
jeanne (53:05.2)
Okay, so we will see you again next week on the sensitivity doctors podcast. Thank you for joining us.