Zach shares his mission to cultivate love and joy in the world through his work in yoga, poetry, and coaching with Drs. Kelley and Jeanne.
Zach Beach, MA, is committed to building a world based on unconditional love and connection. He does that as an relationship coach, yoga and meditation teacher, poet writer, podcast host, and as the founder of The Heart Center love school.
Key Takeaways
EPISODE LINKS: Zach Beach
IG, FB and Twitter: @zachbeachlove
Dr. Kelley (00:00.942)
So Zach, I've had the opportunity to talk with you on your podcast and in your work, you have a really beautiful focus on love. And I was curious just to help our listeners get to know you and the work that you do, what that means to you and why it's so important in the work that you put out there.
Dr. Jeanne (00:02.436)
Yes.
Zach (00:22.949)
Yes, thank you so much. I love love. I think it's the reason that we are here on this planet that life is a classroom and love is the lesson. And if you're looking for happiness or joy or meaning or even God or the divine in your life, look no further than love. So my mission in life is to cultivate joy in every heart and love in everybody. And I'm working on it. I haven't touched everyone yet.
Dr. Kelley (00:27.406)
Hehehehe.
Dr. Kelley (00:51.022)
Heheheheh
Dr. Jeanne (00:51.108)
Hehehehe.
Zach (00:51.621)
But that's my mission in life is to bring more love into the world.
Dr. Kelley (00:58.67)
And what, as far as the work that you do, just to let our audience know a little bit about you, I know poetry and yoga and podcasts. Can you share a little bit about that?
Zach (01:10.341)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I think it just speaks to the power of intention. You know, a goal is a single point that you are looking to attain in the future, and it ends up having a fairly limited and narrow path. But an intention is something you can bring into this moment right now, and it opens you up to a myriad of possibilities. So I think you both are also working in this field of love and exploring how you can cultivate it in people's hearts.
Dr. Kelley (01:16.078)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (01:25.422)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (01:29.188)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (01:32.11)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (01:35.95)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Zach (01:38.853)
So I do think of my work in the world as being a beautiful tree and the center of the tree, the trunk is love and it has a number of branches. And right now, some of those branches include teaching yoga, which is a wonderful way of tending and befriending all aspects of our experience. Another way is writing poetry, which to me is the language of the heart. And for the, you know, the more cognitively inclined folks, I like to...
Dr. Kelley (01:47.022)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (01:59.534)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (02:04.357)
write and do workshops and do coachings and different things like that. So that's what it is right now and in the future I might be on different branches on this love tree.
Dr. Kelley (02:13.902)
Hehehehe.
Dr. Jeanne (02:14.788)
Hahaha.
Dr. Kelley (02:16.974)
So as I hear you explain all of this, I cannot help but think of how, you know, creative and deeply conscientious you are, which we know are traits of high sensitivity. So I was curious, HSP, what we're all about. So I was curious, have you ever done the HSP assessment before?
Dr. Jeanne (02:29.668)
HSB.
Zach (02:31.621)
Hahaha!
Zach (02:40.005)
I wasn't aware there was a full assessment, but I'll definitely do that after this.
Dr. Kelley (02:45.454)
okay. Let's see. I'm trying to think of some of the questions from it, but essentially, do it. Yes. But essentially, highly sensitive people are what they're finding almost close to 30 % of the population. And it's folks who are genetically, biologically tuned in more to their environment.
Dr. Jeanne (02:50.532)
I'm gonna pull it up, I'm gonna pull it up.
Zach (02:53.509)
Ha ha ha!
Zach (03:02.501)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (03:10.574)
just your whole nervous system, your brain, your limbic system is just more active and you walk in a room and you feel and see all the things versus maybe a non -HSP or a lower sensitive person might see 50 of the things. So I don't know if this is a term that you've thought of or have been familiar with yourself, but would you consider yourself to be a highly sensitive person?
Zach (03:39.045)
So in short, absolutely. And in long, you know, part of my spiritual practice is not getting too caught up in identity and ego. So I wouldn't say like I am a highly sensitive person. However, absolutely. When I read about descriptions about the qualities that a highly sensitive person has, I do very much resonate. It's almost like reading a horoscope. I'm like, hmm, that does sound a lot like me. Yes, people do often tell me I'm too sensitive. My wife actually tells me I'm too sensitive.
Dr. Kelley (03:40.878)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (03:46.702)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (03:51.278)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (03:57.518)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (04:00.868)
Mmm. Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (04:01.39)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (04:08.965)
quite a lot. And I do feel that I feel very deeply. And as I mentioned, I love poetry and one quote I love by Rilke, it's very simple. It's just, it's just being here is so much. And that's what I feel, just like being here. Yeah, just being here in a life, it's so much. Like every moment offers just a...
Dr. Jeanne (04:10.404)
Ha ha.
Dr. Kelley (04:11.054)
Hehehehe.
Dr. Kelley (04:15.694)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (04:25.742)
my gosh, yes. I'm going to start saying that to my kids.
Dr. Jeanne (04:26.66)
Wow. That's so simple but so profound.
Dr. Kelley (04:37.87)
Yeah.
Zach (04:38.789)
million like, you know, things to think about and focus on and be with. And yeah, so definitely the qualities that are used to describe highly sensitive people I very much resonate with.
Dr. Jeanne (04:39.62)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (04:52.804)
Yeah, I actually got them here Emile. Do you want me to put like two or three out there? Okay.
Dr. Kelley (04:56.846)
I do. I want to pick, yeah, maybe pick like five. I'd be so curious if we could do like a percentage for Zach. I actually had a thought though that I did want to piggyback off of what you said. I too, even though I'm a clinician, I am not a big fan of some of the personality assessments and like I'm not a big MMPI person or that is Myers -Gregson.
Dr. Jeanne (05:01.348)
Okay.
Zach (05:04.229)
I don't know.
Dr. Jeanne (05:23.524)
My Earth's break. Yeah.
Zach (05:23.845)
My, my, my is brings down.
Dr. Kelley (05:24.302)
or like Enneagram or like any of that. I'm just, I feel like humans are too complex and intricate to really deduce into, I'm such an HSP. We're so multi -dimensional. But the thing that I appreciate about the research that's been done in this area, which it's been 30 years, Dr. Lane -Aaron is the spearhead to this and it's kind of fallen into,
Zach (05:31.141)
Mm -hmm. What a sensitive person thing to say. Human beings are so multidimensional and complex and...
Dr. Jeanne (05:35.908)
Hahaha!
Dr. Kelley (05:53.326)
so many different avenues from this, is that it's actually based on biology and the way that the limbic system interacts with the world. So similar, it's a form of neurodiversity, essentially. So it's similar to the dopamine processing deficiencies in maybe ADHD or some of the mirroring neuroactivity in someone who's on spectrum. So it's not these diagnoses, but it's that.
Zach (06:02.949)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (06:23.118)
I don't want to sound over the top, but it's kind of that serious as in it's that they essentially can do brain scans on certain individuals and make some deductions on whether or not they're an HSP. So that's what I always find so wild. And the genetic component, because I look at my kiddos' HSPs through and through. So I'd be curious, actually, Dr. Jean had some of the...
Dr. Jeanne (06:42.756)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (06:51.342)
So live right here on the Sensitivity Doctors, we're going to test Zach. Only for today. Yes.
Zach (06:55.365)
What if I fail?
Dr. Jeanne (06:57.54)
Only for today. Only for today. Okay, cool. So, I am easily overwhelmed by strong sensory inputs.
Zach (07:07.205)
Easily overwhelmed. I'm sure it's a spectrum, right? Like if on a scale of one to five. Okay. Yeah, I would say so.
Dr. Kelley (07:10.622)
and by the way, it's supposed to be any of the time. Any of the time. Okay.
Dr. Jeanne (07:20.228)
Other people's moods affect me.
Zach (07:22.949)
Mm hmm. I was just talking with somebody about this. I was like, are you ever around like a particularly anxious person? And then you're like, my God, this is making me anxious.
Dr. Jeanne (07:32.2)
Okay, I'm particularly sensitive to the effects of caffeine.
Dr. Kelley (07:33.55)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (07:39.589)
for sure. That's yeah, I have to. Coffee. my gosh. I'll be bouncing off the walls. No caffeine afternoon.
Dr. Kelley (07:42.67)
Heheheheh
Dr. Jeanne (07:48.292)
I'm made uncomfortable by loud noises.
Dr. Kelley (07:48.493)
Hehehehe
Zach (07:53.221)
Yeah, definitely as I've gotten older for sure. It's like I do. I'm like, man, that coronary is outside. They need a new muffler.
Dr. Kelley (07:57.326)
You
Dr. Jeanne (08:03.948)
I get rattled when I have a lot to do in a short amount of time.
Dr. Kelley (08:04.142)
I'm out.
Zach (08:11.461)
okay. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (08:13.284)
You want me to keep going? Yeah, now we're five for five
Dr. Kelley (08:14.543)
So we're five for five.
Zach (08:16.869)
no.
Dr. Kelley (08:22.894)
So one.
Zach (08:22.917)
I sometimes think there's that comic of like the turtle riding the sloth and the sloth and the turtle is like, my God, slow down. And so even when we talk about like highly sensitive people, I think it's also important to recognize like, you know, we live in a world that is pretty overwhelming. Like we are bombarded with extra sensory stimulation all the time, everywhere we go. And it's much, you know, the natural world, which is.
Dr. Jeanne (08:40.708)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (08:41.134)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (08:45.774)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (08:52.133)
is a lot more peaceful and more quiet than the hustle and bustle of New York City.
Dr. Kelley (08:54.798)
You have a good point.
Dr. Kelley (08:59.118)
You make a good point and it's actually one of the things that is researched and explored a lot for HSPs, that the HSP need for nature is higher than the non -HSP need. We all need it. We all need it. One of the most promising things I've ever heard because the activity of our mirror neurons and because we are emotional sponges and we have superpowers because of this trait, by the way.
Dr. Jeanne (08:59.172)
Yeah.
Zach (09:11.909)
Mm -hmm. Right.
Dr. Kelley (09:28.526)
We tend to be really innovative, very empathetic, very creative. We think outside the box. We know what people in the room need in order to make them comfortable. These things are all HSP superpowers, but like a computer, if it gets overloaded, the computer shuts down, essentially. Overheating, right.
Dr. Jeanne (09:41.252)
Hmm.
Zach (09:42.341)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (09:51.332)
Yeah.
Zach (09:52.069)
Overheat, yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (09:53.764)
That's so funny that you're saying a computer, Emilia, because my husband is a super tech guy and he got me a new computer this week and it has some kind of weird huge engine and it has to have all of these fans to cool down the engine. It's like kind of like your brain when you have too much noise. You need the fan to...
Dr. Kelley (10:09.738)
But you said something about your wife saying you were too sensitive. That's true. Okay.
Zach (10:10.853)
Yeah, you need the coolant fan.
Zach (10:21.893)
True. There's a little bit of judgment there, obviously.
Dr. Jeanne (10:26.532)
Hahaha
Dr. Kelley (10:27.342)
So I want to know actually, this is something I was really wanting to ask you about. How do you think people like your wife or society in general view men who are sensitive?
Dr. Jeanne (10:41.956)
Mm.
Zach (10:43.269)
I mean, we're pummeled with the message not to be sensitive and to be seen as strong and not to be vulnerable. And I often point out that there's no feminine equivalent for the term emasculating. In general, as a society, like femininity is often seen as intrinsic to women. Like, you know, I feel like a natural woman is just something that you feel while performative masculinity is very much a thing.
Dr. Jeanne (10:45.732)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (10:45.838)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (11:02.212)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (11:06.83)
Hahaha.
Dr. Jeanne (11:07.94)
Hehehe.
Dr. Kelley (11:10.478)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (11:11.653)
Right. So even I was reading about one psychology study where like they had men do like a stereotypically feminine activity, like cutting hair, for example, or like braiding somebody's hair. And then they asked them afterwards, now what do you want to do? Do you want to watch television or you want to punch this punching bag? And a vast majority of the men wanted to punch the punching bag.
Dr. Jeanne (11:30.944)
Thanks for watching!
Dr. Kelley (11:34.446)
Zach (11:34.629)
And versus like the control group did not have say a feminine activity. And then, you know, it's about 50 50. And it's like, after doing something that might seem like feminine, they're like, I gotta go, I gotta prove myself. I gotta like, you know, eat some meat and watch some sports or something like that. And so there is, yeah, sure. Yeah. Build a deck. That's, that's a good one. Once you get your, your.
Dr. Kelley (11:48.91)
Hahaha!
Dig holes.
Hehehehehe
Dr. Jeanne (12:02.82)
No.
Dr. Kelley (12:03.278)
Quick!
Zach (12:04.485)
And that's the thing, there is this sort of continuous pressure to always be performing in a masculine way and a desire to like prove one's masculinity. And it's easy to kind of lose that sense when you are like doing something that can be perceived. As you mentioned, it's a superpower, absolutely. But it's not often perceived that way. It's often perceived as weak and not...
Dr. Kelley (12:27.086)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (12:34.404)
you know, not following what you're supposed to be doing.
Dr. Kelley (12:37.602)
Do you feel like any of the messaging that you just were speaking about were things that you personally experienced or do you think these are just like kind of societal messages or both?
Dr. Jeanne (12:37.924)
Mm.
Zach (12:51.973)
of course. Yeah. I mean, since being told at a young age that boys don't cry to, you know, I have two older sisters. So my, even though I was the youngest, my dad would be like, you know, we got to take, we got to take care of the women in the relationship. Like we have to be seen as, you know, protective and providing and all sorts of things. So every, we get all sorts of messages from.
Dr. Jeanne (12:53.86)
Hehehe
Dr. Kelley (12:57.678)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:03.502)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (13:07.588)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:09.134)
You're too.
Dr. Kelley (13:18.894)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (13:18.949)
media, from society, from culture, from teachers, from parents and family. And, and, you know, that's the way it's important to recognize how like patriarchy hurts everyone. And like, being put, staying in a position of power makes you want to always put on a face of strength and lack of vulnerabilities. So it does result, you know, in not being in touch with one's emotions and one's embodied experience.
Dr. Kelley (13:22.286)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:40.366)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (13:46.19)
Mm -hmm. That's a good way to put that. I do have some hope for our sensitive men out there though. It is that there is some messaging. There are some podcasts and some books. I love Justin Baldoni's book, Man Enough. Have you heard of it or read it? Neither of you? It's...
Dr. Jeanne (13:49.027)
Hmm. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (14:09.828)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (14:12.718)
It's wonderful. And he also wrote a book, it's on my shelf, Boys Will Be Human, strictly for boys. I bought it for my son, he's too young for it, he's only four. But, you know, when he comes of age to like his preadolescence and all of that, and they're messaging around how there's this image of masculinity, but that emotions are not gendered.
Dr. Jeanne (14:27.236)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (14:39.78)
Hmm.
Zach (14:41.381)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (14:42.35)
You know, sadness is not a gender. Love, like you were saying, and joy, and all of these things are human. They're not, they don't necessarily have to carry feminine or masculine energy. They can just be human experiences. And so, I mean, the message is just rippling out there, but I guess I'm starting to pick up on some of this awareness that...
Dr. Jeanne (14:57.604)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (15:09.742)
And actually to prove a point, there are as many HSP men as there are women. There is no difference in gender.
Zach (15:18.737)
Absolutely. What you're describing is an important piece of compassion work. I sometimes think of the heart as seeing deeper into somebody beyond the discriminative mind that will view people for you via their gender or tall person, short person, big person, small person, you know, person I like, person I don't like. But it's the heart that sees past that to see our common humanity that yes, we are all
Dr. Kelley (15:24.366)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (15:39.438)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (15:43.46)
Mm.
Zach (15:45.061)
We all have these same emotions. We all have fears and doubts and insecurities and hopes and dreams and joys and sorrows. And it's that commonness, that sameness, which to me is a source of compassion and understanding.
Dr. Kelley (15:52.398)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (15:59.246)
Mm -hmm. So considering that we may have kind of identified today that you may potentially be an HSP, I would, maybe. What kind of things, maybe in reflecting, I found when I discovered I was an HSP years ago, I watched the Sensitive the Untold Story documentary, I stumbled on the Gaia Channel had it.
Dr. Jeanne (16:07.62)
Maybe.
Dr. Kelley (16:27.694)
And I remember watching it, clicking the screen off and just thinking,
Dr. Jeanne (16:32.964)
wait, sorry. What was that background noise? sorry.
Zach (16:34.981)
That was a motorcycle, sorry. It's gone now.
Dr. Kelley (16:36.258)
It's okay. No, it's okay. So I remember watching Sensitive the Untold Story, wonderful documentary on Gaia and well, it's shared different places as well and turning the screen off, sitting back and just thinking, I don't have anger management issues. I just, do you hear that dog? Did you hear the dog? It's my dog.
Dr. Jeanne (16:58.18)
Thank you.
Zach (17:02.021)
Tiny bit.
Dr. Kelley (17:05.262)
I bet he's barking at the tree people. Sorry, hold on one second. I'm gonna bring him in here so he doesn't do that.
Dr. Jeanne (17:07.107)
Ehh!
Dr. Jeanne (17:12.356)
Maybe the dog is also highly sensitive. An HSA, highly sensitive animal.
Zach (17:15.429)
Yeah. The universe is like, some highly, highly sensitive people talking. Let's give them some dog noises and some computer noises and that'll be fun.
Dr. Jeanne (17:30.18)
my gosh.
Dr. Kelley (17:42.35)
That was.
Dr. Kelley (17:55.374)
Let me lay down.
Dr. Kelley (18:01.006)
So funny because I will say, let me fix my hair, highly sensitive people are 30 % but there's also highly sensitive animals.
Dr. Jeanne (18:13.508)
We were just saying maybe use an HSA, a highly sensitive animal.
Zach (18:14.597)
No, we were just saying that.
Dr. Kelley (18:20.046)
He's not a highly sensitive animal. I wish he was. I get along better with highly sensitive animals. My last dog was, he, if I'm upset about anything, he just kind of stares at me like, what's wrong with you? Whereas my other dog would be very empathic. No, he actually has like canine ADHD and is on medication. Well, you met him.
Dr. Jeanne (18:41.38)
That's a thing? I didn't even know that's a thing. Yeah, it explains a lot now though, because...
Dr. Kelley (18:48.046)
Yeah, yeah. So, but what I was getting at was when I watched the documentary and I clicked it off and I sat back and I had this moment of like, aha, about kind of looking back in hindsight that, you know, maybe I don't have anger issues or maybe I'm not hypersensitive in a way. Maybe it's that I wasn't managing my nervous system the way it needed to considering that I'm a highly sensitive person.
So if, for instance, you may also be one, can you think of things that maybe you're already doing that help protect your energy or things that you think are important to do to protect your energy? Because that's a big part of being an HSP and living within your superpower instead of being flooded by it.
Dr. Jeanne (19:30.436)
Hmm.
Zach (19:40.229)
Mm hmm. Yeah, I think if I talk a little bit about my own path, that might help kind of elucidate this question because we already mentioned how absolutely men in this culture are raised to hide vulnerability, not be seen as weak and be seen as strong. So I absolutely was raised in this way. And I really feel like my life really began in my 20s when I started to uncover.
these layers, these almost like armor, right, that we put on. And I love the metaphor of armor because like armor, it creates heaviness, it restricts freedom and movement. And we think it's going to protect us, but it only creates heaviness in our lives. So in taking the armor off, I really felt like I really came into myself and really felt both myself and alive for the first time.
Dr. Kelley (20:08.11)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Zach (20:36.997)
And an important part of that is the compassion piece that I mentioned is really get in touch with the nature of the heart and the language of the heart. And part of that path has also been one of self -love, learning to love myself and accept all these parts of myself, including the part that likes to feel and feel into this world. And I have also found that
Dr. Kelley (20:45.006)
Hmm.
Zach (21:03.269)
boundaries is a crucial and critical part of self -love. Is that once we recognize that we deserve all the love that our heart can hold, we will end up not putting up with certain behaviors that aren't in line with what we're seeking to have in our life. So another aspect of self -love is recognizing that we're human and we have emotional needs and we deserve to get those needs met.
Dr. Jeanne (21:08.804)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (21:16.846)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (21:31.406)
Hmm.
Zach (21:31.621)
So one metaphor I use is self -indulgence is a cupcake for dinner and self -love is a cupcake after dinner. And what I mean by that, yeah, what I mean by that is like, is this a cupcake after dinner is like, yes, if you've had a really long day, you deserve the cupcake. You deserve the warm bath. It's a matter of getting in touch with our emotional needs, accepting them, not just pushing them away and then seeking to get them met.
Dr. Kelley (21:41.174)
I love that.
Now I want a cupcake.
Dr. Jeanne (21:47.972)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (21:57.902)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (22:02.085)
So I do love that you mention in your story, like you watch this really impactful thing and then you turn the TV off and just felt it. And it, cause it ties back into how first of all, we'll continuously pummeled with more and more sensory information. And in fact, now have you noticed like when you're watching a streaming movie and it ends before even the credits roll, it's like, don't you want to see this other thing or let's.
Dr. Kelley (22:10.638)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (22:26.702)
Yes!
Dr. Jeanne (22:27.428)
Yeah.
Zach (22:27.557)
hop over to this people you can't even like feel the emotional impact of things anymore. So that turning off of the television. Yeah, it's just a really lovely boundary to have. So there is a matter of setting all sorts of say sensory boundaries around quietness, around turning off devices, around turning off the Internet. And all of these to me are deeply connected to self love.
Dr. Kelley (22:38.157)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (22:53.541)
self -care and giving ourselves permission just to feel and be in potentially challenging emotions that like a documentary might bring up.
Dr. Kelley (23:03.79)
That's such a wonderful way to put that. I'm so glad that I practiced something without even knowing it in that moment.
Dr. Jeanne (23:06.948)
Yeah.
Zach (23:10.309)
Hahaha.
Dr. Jeanne (23:11.508)
I was like thinking, I'm so guilty of that, of like switching to the next thing and the next thing, not even like turning the TV off and just taking that moment. And as you said that, I was like, well, yeah, I don't even do that.
Zach (23:19.909)
Hmm.
Zach (23:24.677)
Thank you.
Dr. Kelley (23:24.846)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I mean, if you think about what it is like to be highly sensitive or to, and not even just highly sensitive, just a feeling person and having all of that information all the time, what I'm hearing you say is for you when you said love is the message. And if anything, when I think of love, I always think of it as this like external action towards others, but I love that you're turning it,
inward too and the importance of for you not even realizing you are protecting your highly sensitive energy in focusing on self -love.
Zach (24:04.773)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (24:07.534)
I imagine this probably carries over into the way you teach yoga and what you maybe teach your students.
Zach (24:13.125)
Hmm.
absolutely. In a number of ways. I mean, one thing I always talk about is it's easy to add yoga to our grand list of self -improvement projects. You know, you have to eat this much and sleep this much and meditate and, and go to your doctor and do this and this and this and this and this and you have to do yoga. And I always point out that any desire for self -improvement, while important and useful has sort of underlying self -aggression that there's something within you that needs to be improved upon.
Dr. Kelley (24:24.686)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (24:28.452)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (24:45.829)
there's something wrong that we need to fix or change or improve. When really I do see yoga as a way of tending and befriending all of our experience, as a way of allowing ourselves to be in the mess of it all. So I often point out the trap that many people get in to known as spiritual bypassing that we can use like this idea of love and light to just, let me just get around these messy emotions that I don't want to experience. But the only way out,
Dr. Kelley (24:46.158)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (24:57.262)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (25:13.518)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (25:14.885)
is through the only way out is being with this life of 10 ,000 joys and 10 ,000 sorrows. And a lot of that is getting in touch with our body that we tend to push away. But there's also just so much openness that happens. Like the mind is fairly limited. Like if I gave you my 10 digit phone number, you wouldn't be able to even hold 10 numbers in your head. But guess what your body and your heart is doing right now? It's taking in...
Dr. Kelley (25:21.774)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (25:39.428)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (25:39.566)
No.
Zach (25:45.861)
and a myriad of sensory input that your conscious mind is only tip of the iceberg aware of. And so yeah, being here is so much, getting in touch with all these things. But that is also where our source of aliveness is. Like another story I sometimes imagine is like, let's say you went to another country and you were introducing yourself. You were like, I am Dr. Kelly. Where are you gonna put your hand? You're gonna say,
Dr. Jeanne (25:53.636)
Mm.
Dr. Kelley (25:53.902)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (25:59.278)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (26:03.278)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (26:11.982)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (26:15.141)
I'm Dr. Kelly. But no, you're gonna put your hand on your heart. And you're gonna say, I am Dr. Kelly. So right here, this center, our heart center is our source of beingness. It's a source of aliveness. It's where everything arises.
Dr. Kelley (26:16.59)
Hehehehe
Hmm
Dr. Jeanne (26:20.068)
Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (26:30.03)
Mm -hmm. And for anyone who's listening, not watching, you pointed at your head first. I'm not pointing at my massive brain. Brain, Dr. Kelly. That's such a good point. How would you, you know, you speak about the quietness and setting boundaries with the barrage of information. What about...
Zach (26:35.493)
No one says this.
Dr. Jeanne (26:36.58)
Hahaha.
Dr. Kelley (26:59.182)
for people who may struggle with, you know, asserting themselves or claiming their space. So on one hand, I'm thinking of you explaining how to keep things out, but what if you want to let things in and put yourself out there? Like, how would you balance that?
Zach (27:16.453)
You have an example.
Dr. Kelley (27:18.894)
someone's mistreating you and you need to claim your, actually, Jean, I think you were the one who was really curious about exploring this.
Dr. Jeanne (27:27.876)
Yeah, yeah, it's just that I think some people are just less capable, just they find it harder to be assertive without being or putting a negative connotation to being assertive and setting boundaries for themselves. And I do find that many times that is.
true for women, that we do struggle to find that assertiveness within us and almost draw on that more kind of masculine energy or power in a way that helps us set our own boundaries and stand within our own worth and our own self. I'm curious to know how you would teach that to women, especially as a sensitive man. And obviously I would think just as it comes more feminine, perhaps comes more naturally to women.
Zach (28:02.725)
Mmm.
Dr. Jeanne (28:19.3)
the masculine may come more naturally to you as a man. So I would wonder how you would explain that to your female clients and how you help them nurture that side and get into that space.
Zach (28:33.413)
Yeah, there's a few interesting things I'll mention. One is that human beings thrive on boundaries. We need it. And within which we can create extraordinary art. So a painter is limited by the boundaries of the canvas. A musician is limited by the boundaries of the scale and what the instruments can do. Even when you grow a beautiful flower,
Dr. Kelley (28:44.398)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (28:50.532)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (28:53.998)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (29:02.373)
in your garden, you can grow it in a pot and that pot, those boundaries, provide a container within which you grow, growth can happen. But I also need to say, we did kind of jump ahead in my steps. So sometimes I do have workshops in self -love and I wrote this a little bit in my book, The Seven Lessons of Love. There's kind of eight steps that I found to self -love.
Dr. Kelley (29:02.926)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (29:30.222)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (29:30.661)
And worthy, sorry, boundaries is actually step number five. So if you're like people have trouble with boundaries, it's like, yes, because actually there's a few things we need to do first. So the step before boundaries I usually have as worthiness, as reclaiming your worthiness of love. So you can even like write a worthiness mantra. So I actually have this one from Brene Brown where she says,
Dr. Kelley (29:34.734)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (29:35.14)
Dr. Kelley (29:46.83)
Hmm.
Zach (29:56.453)
No matter what gets done and how much is left undone, I am enough. Yes, I'm imperfect and vulnerable and sometimes afraid, but that doesn't change the truth that I am also brave and worthy of love and belonging. So a huge reason people don't set boundaries, they don't think they're worthy of it. And the interesting thing about like the connection between say self -love or high quality relationship with oneself and relationships with others is that yes, there are many people who
Dr. Kelley (30:10.062)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (30:14.062)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (30:25.925)
totally abandon themselves in service of others, right? There are nurses who work, you know, 80 hours a week doing nothing but service to others and helping them feel better. However, when it comes to kind of our intimate relationships, research has found that those with high levels of self -love also have high levels of unhealthy relationships, particularly because they're more likely to communicate their needs and wants because they...
know that they deserve to have their needs and wants met. If I have low self -esteem and my partner treats me badly, the sort of subconscious conclusion I'll come to is that, I guess I deserve it. Like, I'm a terrible person and people treat me terribly as a result. So you're not going to set up that boundary to being treated terribly if you don't think that you are worthy of love. So I'm kind of going backwards here. So first, boundaries require...
Dr. Kelley (30:56.398)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (31:06.094)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (31:11.246)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (31:21.925)
a worthiness and an affirmation that you deserve love. You deserve to be in a happy, healthy and supportive partnership. You deserve to be treated with respect and honesty and to not have your boundaries crossed because that's another big obstacle to setting boundaries is like, well, what's the point? Like, let's say you grew up and all your boundaries were always knocked down and ignored. Then you've come to the sort of unconscious conclusion to not even bother because people won't respect them.
Dr. Jeanne (31:30.052)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (31:45.87)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (31:49.966)
Hmm.
Zach (31:52.133)
So backing up a little bit is I just want to touch to the compassion piece, right? Because this involves recognizing and getting in touch with our own pain. And once we see the suffering, then we can better understand it and then we can kind of suffer less. So it's about treating ourselves the way a good friend would, shifting from our own worst critic to our own best friend, being able to...
Dr. Jeanne (31:55.172)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (31:57.774)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (32:05.23)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (32:10.958)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (32:16.526)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (32:21.189)
hold the pain and be honest with ourselves. And then, so after compassion, friendliness, worthiness, then boundaries.
Dr. Kelley (32:30.766)
boundaries.
Dr. Jeanne (32:32.196)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (32:33.806)
I think that was such a beautiful way to put that because if you don't have, well, it kind of makes me think of how sometimes we confuse self -esteem and confidence. We don't realize they're distinctly different with self -esteem being the belief and the awareness that I as a person deserve to be treated with love and respect and I deserve safety. That's self -esteem. Whereas confidence being, I believe I can do this thing or I can do something whether or not I do it well.
Dr. Jeanne (32:35.812)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (32:43.364)
Mmm.
Zach (32:43.365)
Mm.
Dr. Jeanne (33:02.692)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (33:03.502)
It sounds like you're saying the foundation to self -esteem, actually, no, the foundation to boundaries of self -esteem in a way.
Dr. Jeanne (33:13.516)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (33:14.021)
Mm -hmm. But also self -compassion. Because I... Yeah.
Dr. Kelley (33:14.83)
but you've just...
Right. Yeah, no, keep going.
Zach (33:22.469)
So I'm not, just as an example, I'm not the biggest fan of affirmations in terms of like putting a post -it note on the mirror that's like, you are beautiful and perfect. And it's like, guess what? Sometimes we wake up with bad hair and are some, you know, a big zit on our forehead and we're not as beautiful. And sometimes we make mistakes, but we still deserve love. We're still worthy of love being treated with honesty and respect. So in the same way,
Dr. Kelley (33:27.47)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (33:35.044)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (33:35.054)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (33:43.79)
Mm hmm.
Dr. Kelley (33:49.518)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (33:51.685)
Self -esteem is a bit tricky because affirmations do work for those who already have high self -esteem usually. So like when you see that like really attractive person on Instagram who's like, I just, I just do these affirmations every day. Yeah, it's really easy if you're already feel really good about yourself to tell yourself that you're beautiful and perfect just the way that you are. However, you have low self -esteem. It just becomes immediately clear how much you're missing the mark.
Dr. Jeanne (33:59.524)
Mmm.
Dr. Kelley (33:59.662)
Hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (34:05.508)
Hehehehe.
Dr. Kelley (34:12.974)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Zach (34:21.029)
and how far away you are from these points. So then folks with low self -esteem and try out formations tend to feel worse, tend to feel like, my God, I'm so inadequate. Like there's no way I can even consider myself beautiful today. But the self -compassion piece brings that understanding and empathy. Like, yeah, there's some struggle here and I can hold that and I can be there for myself.
Dr. Kelley (34:21.454)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (34:28.91)
Mm -hmm.
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (34:36.43)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (34:42.734)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (34:48.11)
Yeah, like an actual awareness of what's really happening and not denying it. Yeah, we're a big fan of disappointing affirmations if anyone listened to that episode. I don't know if you know who he is. Have you heard? Yeah, have you heard of him? you'll have to go listen to our episode where we had him on. He has a new book called disappointing affirmations and they're
Zach (34:53.797)
Yes.
Dr. Jeanne (34:54.02)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (34:59.652)
Yeah.
Dave Tarnowski.
Zach (35:07.205)
Mm -mm.
Zach (35:15.045)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (35:15.662)
Hilarious.
Dr. Jeanne (35:16.9)
Yeah, everybody needs to have at least one of those by their bedside.
Dr. Kelley (35:23.342)
Yes. I think my favorite, the one that's very popular is, go ahead, have a panic attack. You deserve it. Yeah, you've earned it. That's what it is. You've earned it. Have you?
Dr. Jeanne (35:29.808)
You've earned it!
Zach (35:33.317)
You know, I had a recent discussion where I was talking with somebody about daring to feel or just like really getting in touch with our emotions. And it's very similar conversation. I was like, what do you think about somebody who cries over spilled milk or, you know, like the hot dog slips out of the bun falls to the ground and you're, and it's just the worst day of your life. And just tears are falling down your face. And, and it's like, go for it. Cry over spilled milk.
Dr. Kelley (35:51.246)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (36:02.83)
Yeah.
Zach (36:02.949)
like cry over the hot like it's OK. And I'm like, you're right. It is OK. Like this. You're not hurting anyone by crying over spilled milk. You're you know, your tears can, you know, put a pot of flowers underneath you. Now your tears are watering flowers. They can be beautiful and wonderful things.
Dr. Kelley (36:06.446)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (36:12.526)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (36:23.438)
I love that because that's actually a way of celebrating high sensitivity. If you experience things on a more deep level, you get to also experience the good things on a more deep level, by the way. A little anecdote, took my daughter to see Broadway's The Lion King yesterday. It's my husband, my daughter and myself and it was a big deal because we...
Zach (36:28.325)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (36:44.004)
Yeah.
Zach (36:44.421)
Okay.
Dr. Kelley (36:49.23)
are going out without her brother, you know, for the first time since he's been born. So beautiful night, we're sitting there. They come out, they present the king in the beginning and I am sobbing at the beginning of the, this is the beginning of the whole thing. I wasn't, I didn't even get through the first song. And I'm thinking, you know what? I get to feel so much of the good stuff too.
Zach (37:08.133)
Hehehehehe
Dr. Kelley (37:17.774)
So I think having to your point, if we have self -compassion about our uniqueness as sensitive people or whoever, whatever feeling type of human you are, you actually get to fully experience whatever you're experiencing, good or bad.
which can be hard sometimes. Yeah. Have you heard?
Zach (37:36.261)
Absolutely.
So I feel I need to quote Rilke again because he says, you see, I want a lot. Perhaps I want everything. The darkness that comes with every infinite fall and the shivering blaze of every step up. And it goes on. But yeah, we welcome in the entirety of the human experience. If we refuse to feel any lows that will cut us off from the highs.
Dr. Kelley (37:43.598)
Do it.
Dr. Kelley (37:56.686)
So...
Dr. Jeanne (37:59.46)
Wow.
Dr. Kelley (38:04.878)
Mm -hmm. That's so true. You guys, I wish I had literally quoted that when I looked at them when they were kind of making fun of me for crying. Could you imagine? That would have been epic. So I kind of want to ask you one reflective question just from the time that you've had in talking today, because we...
Dr. Jeanne (38:05.764)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (38:13.958)
Well as Wilkie would say.
Dr. Jeanne (38:15.588)
Yeah, you should have had that.
Dr. Kelley (38:33.326)
touched on the high sensitivity, we kind of figured out that you may be in this category, even if you don't like the checkbox. I mean, how do you feel about the fact that you might be a highly sensitive person? Like, what does that elicit for you?
Zach (38:51.237)
it elicits understanding, right? So I think you're clinicians, right? So there's always a hesitancy like whether or not to diagnose somebody with a certain thing. Right, right, right, right. But like, you know, like I talked to some therapists and they're like, I might diagnose someone like for insurance purposes, right? But for a lot of people getting that label, like when the doctor's like, you have this, it's like,
Dr. Kelley (38:54.894)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (39:02.286)
It's not a diagnosis, I will say that. It's a state trait. Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (39:04.932)
Hahaha.
Dr. Kelley (39:13.742)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Zach (39:20.453)
everything makes sense now. Like, it gives you a way to kind of conceptualize and understand it. So because I have always like felt connected to like the sort of like, I don't know, like tortured poet archetype, like the person that feels deeply into the human experience and as a result is able to express the depth and complexities and multidimensionality of the human experience. So.
Dr. Kelley (39:23.726)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Jeanne (39:24.196)
Hmm.
Dr. Kelley (39:27.854)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (39:36.302)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (39:43.246)
Mm -hmm.
Zach (39:50.309)
Seeing that balance of the yin and yang or the getting in touch with the darkness allows one to express it in kind of creative and beautiful and transformational ways. And as you know, I'm in my, I just finished the first year of my marriage and family therapy program because I do see this as, yeah, as my future, as being there for people, as feeling for people, as cultivating a heart that's big enough to hold everything.
Dr. Kelley (40:06.702)
Which is awesome.
Dr. Kelley (40:18.35)
Mm -hmm. Yes. And that, listeners, is the answer of a highly sensitive person. When you ask, how do you feel about being a highly sensitive person, deep conscientiousness is a big aspect of this brain, this beautiful brain that I really do think, you know, we all have. We have these beautiful, highly sensitive brains that get to feel so much. And looking at it through love and loving,
Dr. Jeanne (40:19.108)
That's so nice
Dr. Jeanne (40:26.596)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (40:36.228)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Kelley (40:47.31)
the uniqueness of this, I think is just how those superpowers come out. Aside from, you know, every once in a while, the crash that needs to be taken care of. So Zach, I have loved talking. I know we've loved talking to you and I appreciate you letting us kind of use you as a guinea pig a little bit today. I know.
Zach (40:56.709)
huh.
Dr. Jeanne (40:57.092)
Yeah.
Zach (41:09.773)
It did feel like I was under the microscope a little bit here.
Dr. Jeanne (41:13.444)
I'm sorry.
Dr. Kelley (41:15.406)
We actually turned it into an experiential episode. Where can our audience find these wonderful creative offerings that you have so they can connect with their self -love?
Zach (41:29.093)
yes, thank you. So my name is Zach Beach. You can go to zachbeach .com. I'm also at Zach Beach Love on the social media. So I'm happy to connect with anyone that resonates with this message. And thank you, both of you so much for having me. It's been wonderful to connect our hearts wherever they may be in the world. Portugal and Dr. Kelly, where are you? Nice. Yeah, so it's just been a lovely gift. I'm over here in San Francisco.
Dr. Kelley (41:51.598)
I'm in Raleigh, outside Raleigh. I can't remember where you are. Where are you again?
Dr. Jeanne (41:55.684)
Thank you.
Dr. Kelley (41:58.798)
right. Okay, West Coast. So it's like, I knew you were in the States, but.
Zach (42:01.733)
Yeah.
Dr. Jeanne (42:02.5)
Thank you so much. This was such a really, really nice conversation to have. We appreciate it.
Dr. Kelley (42:10.638)
Thank you, Zach. Bye, everyone.
Zach (42:13.029)
Thank you. It's been a pleasure. Bye.
Dr. Jeanne (42:13.06)
Bye.
Thank you so much, Zach.
Dr. Kelley (42:16.686)
so you don't actually have to log off. Yeah.
Zach (42:18.661)
Ha ha ha ha ha ha!
Zach (42:25.125)
yeah.
Zach (42:30.917)
If I just type in HSP assessment, you think it'll pop up?